socialism, property, and the state

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Only one side, however, punished those of its own that we found guilty of attrocities, the Bolsheviks.

Even Lenin?

[David Floyd]

Because if you allow freedom, you cannot force people to be unselfish.

The answer, of course, is that democracy does not equate to or produce freedom in most cases.

[David Floyd]

it is in the self-interest of people to cooperate rather than compete.

I'm glad we agree that there is, in essence, nothing wrong with the cooperation of the CEOs of, say, Exxon-Mobil and Texaco.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Even Lenin?

I don't recall the word all being in my statement. It may be the case the Lenin ordered some pretty horrible stuff. I niether deny nor accept those claims, at present (my commie masters haven't told me what to think yet ). I simply haven't read either Pipes' claims or the counters to his claims to make an informed judgement.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A democracy can easily punish selfishness, either by prison or by simpler means such as ostracism. Furthermore, self-interest != selfishness. It is by self-interest that socialsimand communist will ultiamtely be established, because it is in the self-interest of people to cooperate rather than compete.

The problem is that you cant force people to be selfless, they have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise you have to throw everyone in prison. Co-operation will come, but it has to be learned.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Well if you condemn both you're one of the first - most communists seem to applaud the murder of the Czar's family.

I am extremely uncomfortable with the murder of the Romanov's, well, the children anyway. I don't know that they had much of a choice. The White armies were approaching Yekaterinaburg, and if the Romanovs fell into their hands, it might have enabled the Whites to rally more people to their evil cause.

I have to wonder why they weren't moved.

[David Floyd]

I am extremely uncomfortable with the murder of the Romanov's, well, the children anyway.

I can't see justify killing anyone except the Czar himself.

I don't know that they had much of a choice. The White armies were approaching Yekaterinaburg, and if the Romanovs fell into their hands, it might have enabled the Whites to rally more people to their evil cause.

Sure they had a choice - don't commit murder and retain some semblance of morality.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Caligastia
The problem is that you cant force people to be selfless, they have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise you have to throw everyone in prison. Co-operation will come, but it has to be learned.

Children learn not to be selfish because they are punished by their parents (what an uncomforatble analogy). A democratic society can easily just ostracize those of its members who act selfishly. If your friends and family won't have anything to do with you, you will likely change your ways.

[David Floyd]

Children learn not to be selfish because they are punished by their parents (what an uncomforatble analogy). A democratic society can easily just ostracize those of its members who act selfishly. If your friends and family won't have anything to do with you, you will likely change your ways.

This, of course, assumes anyone would ostracize anyone else, which, at least in the US, is just not gonna happen.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Caligastia

The problem is that you cant force people to be selfless, they have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise you have to throw everyone in prison. Co-operation will come, but it has to be learned.

Bingo.

By the way, Che, I'm not saying that a democracy is incapable of providing more equality than we have presently in the the Western nations. But it will take time. Eventually, through the democractic process, we may arrive at something which approximates communism, but I don't see that happening for a long time.

David,

Democracy as we know it isn't perfect. Clearly not. But I think it's a helluva lot better than the alternatives. Plus, it does allow for changes to be made peacefully.

---

So, for all those socialists and communists out there, convince the voting public in a democracy that you are right, and you will be all set. Though I suspect you will fail for the forseeable future.

And don't blame your inability to gain political control through elections on some vast conspiracy headed up by a bunch of CEO's in a dark room. That's a copout. If your ideas really are that good, they can stand on their own merits and people will see their validity.

-Arrian

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Children learn not to be selfish because they are punished by their parents (what an uncomforatble analogy). A democratic society can easily just ostracize those of its members who act selfishly. If your friends and family won't have anything to do with you, you will likely change your ways.

But is there anyone who is really trustworthy enough to be responsible for dishing out the punishment for selfish behaviour? Parents are (usually) much wiser than their children because of their life experience, but very seldom (if ever) is there this level of distinction purely on the adult level. For a system like this to work we would need beings superior to humans to administer it.

[chequita guevara]

Comrades, neighbors, fellow workers. I put before you the case of Comrade Floyd, who has been accused and found guilty of hoarding food stuffs. It has been proposed that he should be ostracized by his neighbors, friends, family, and coworkers.

How votes the community?

[Then everyone votes]

More likely, however, a vigorous debate would ensue on what punishment is necessary, whether or not Comrade Floyd is redeemable, etc, before settling on a proposal for discipling him for his heinous crimes.

[Garth Vader]

For a system like this to work we would need beings superior to humans to administer it.

Ok, you twisted my arm, I volunteer

[chequita guevara]

Actually, in the process of creating a socialist society, human beings would also be recreating themselves into something better. So no worries, Caligastia.

And remember, communism means free beer.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Comrades, neighbors, fellow workers. I put before you the case of Comrade Floyd, who has been accused and found guilty of hoarding food stuffs. It has been proposed that he should be ostracized by his neighbors, friends, family, and coworkers.

How votes the community?

[Then everyone votes]

More likely, however, a vigorous debate would ensue on what punishment is necessary, whether or not Comrade Floyd is redeemable, etc, before settling on a proposal for discipling him for his heinous crimes.

Who found him guilty? You see there still has to be people in authority, and with these kinds of draconian laws in place the potential for abuse of power increases tremendously.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.