Human Rights Watch: No evidence of massacre in Jenin

[klesh]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
I find it hard to believe you guys can't stop argueing when you are both damn geeks.

I'll stop if Siro admits he is a geek first.

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I can't believe Ecthelion can spell

Me eithre

-FMK.

[lord of the mark]

wow - 5 pages of replies - in every conceivable direction, from the Colombian war, to the nature of IR realism and ethical judgement, to the American Revolution, to the international law of occupation and disputed territory, to the impartiality of the UN.

And everyone is avoiding the topic of the original post that started the thread.

The PA asserted, quite definitively, quite strongly, that there was a massacre in Jenin. Several hundred civilians, killed, most deliberately. A massacre. Something equivalent in scale and worth of outrage to the massacres that have been occuring in Israel at the hands of homicide bombers.

And, lo and behold - total Palestinian deaths in Jenin, about 50. Total civilian deaths, between 7 and 22, depending on whom you believe. Few or none (depending on whom you believe) due to Israeli violations of laws of war. None slaughtered deliberately, a la homicide bombings, (or a la Srebinica, for that matter)

Now IF ANY of these civilian deaths was due to violations of laws of war this is quite serious. (It would be good if the UN could see its way to a fair commision, with a fair mandate- one that will document the facts, and leave interpretation and the judgement of what constitutes a war crime to less biased members of the international community - I suspect that given UN stonewalling on Israeli conditions, we will see a US-UK investigative team instead) However it is quite clear that the cry of massacre was pure libel, an attempt to retroactively excuse the homicide bombings, and thus to undercut the grounds for the Israeli operation.

In view of this it must be asked whether the Palestinian leadership can be believed on anything. It is also well to expect that those who presume to have a role to play in negotiations, (I mean particularly the Europeans and the Russians) will acknowledge the nature of this libel, and state what they see as its significance for future negotiations.


LOTM

[Ecthy]

My spelling is superb. If there's anything wrong with my English on this board or on ICQ, then it's typing.

And typing is not spelling.

I find it hard to believe you can't distinguish between those terms

[Panag]

hi ,

well , guys , can we stay with the topic please , ....

it seems that when cnn and other stop to talk about Jenin their is silence here , .........???

have a nice day

[CyberGnu]

The PA reiterated what civilians escaping Jenin told them. What should they have done, called them liars? At least the PA welcomed the fact-finding comitee...

BTW, you on the other hand wont mention the human rights reports of wrcrimes in Jenin.

Quite frankly, if you condemn the PA for reeating unsubstantiated claims, you should be calling for death by slow turture to the soliders committing warcrimes, if you want the proportion of the offense to remain intact.

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
The PA reiterated what civilians escaping Jenin told them. What should they have done, called them liars? At least the PA welcomed the fact-finding comitee...

BTW, you on the other hand wont mention the human rights reports of wrcrimes in Jenin.

Quite frankly, if you condemn the PA for reeating unsubstantiated claims, you should be calling for death by slow turture to the soliders committing warcrimes, if you want the proportion of the offense to remain intact.

hi ,

report ? well how can i , or even anyone react , there is not a report yet !!!

and i agree that anyone who is guilty of a crime should take what he should get , i can tell you in the Israeli defense forces they dont like it when a soldier walks on the wrong side of the law , ......

oh ; the IDF general staff put a facts finding court in to action on the first day of the operation , ......

have a nice day

[Sirotnikov]

The PA reiterated what civilians escaping Jenin told them. What should they have done, called them liars? At least the PA welcomed the fact-finding comitee...

Not exact, the civilians reiterated what PA henchmen told them to say. "If you cry about a massacare, we'll get a state sooner".

And again, FYI - Israel was the one that suggested the fact-finding comittee in the first place!

Only after we learnt that annan plans to put anti-semites and people who are already pro-palestinian in the comittee, that Israel decided to cancel the whole deal.

BTW, you on the other hand wont mention the human rights reports of wrcrimes in Jenin.

There are two claims of war crimes.

1. Stopping of ambulances.
This was sad but necessary and a response to Palestinian war crimes. As I'm sure you know, it is illegal to use ambulances for purposes of war. Palestinians do that all the time sadly, forcing Israel to check every single ambulance thoroughly.

2. Using civilians as human shields.
This I do not understand. It seems very hard for me to get how can one establish that, and how can one establish who was it (IDF or Pals) that did so.

[CyberGnu]

And since everyone who doesn't agree that jews are ubermensch and have the right to kill and enslave the rest of the world is an anti-semite, the commission was bound to contain 'anti-semites'. doesn't really matter if Israel asked for it or not, if this was their reasoning.

BTW, the UN DID put in more military personell, etc, but the main stumbling blocks were the proviions from the Israeli goverment that
A) the committe could only look at evidence the Israeli goverment approved.
B) israeli soldiers were immune to indictment to war crimes.

and these are actions from a nation without anything to hide? Yeah, right...


as for what happened, I'm not going to argue that part. I'm content that amnesty, HRR etc have done their leg work.


Panang, ahh, yes, the IDF, known for how fair and just it is... Oh, wait, it is not? It is in fact 100% beind the actions of its soliders, whether they are raping, pillaging or murdering? Oh, well, I'm certainly looking forward to that impartial and honest investigation then...

[Sirotnikov]

And since everyone who doesn't agree that jews are ubermensch and have the right to kill and enslave the rest of the world is an anti-semite, the commission was bound to contain 'anti-semites'. doesn't really matter if Israel asked for it or not, if this was their reasoning.

you're spouting nonsense again.

My point was, that if you give high regards to the pals for agreeing to the comission, sharon should get a higher regard for inviting it in the first place.

and there has been much discussion about the comitte, but let me counter you

1. one of the member (previous red corss chairman) is seriously suspected of anti-semitism.
2. only 1 (or 2) of the 5 comitte members were actually people with military experience
3. the rest were known as anti-israeli

As for your points, the stumbling blocks were set up after it was clear to Israel that we can't change the comittee's members.

And you are very inexact.

The exact demands were
A) that the comittee's work will be transparent
B) that israeli wittnesses could not incriminate themselves.

Those are usually the basic rules of every democratic court system. Transparent process, and a right not to incriminate ones self.

Also there was a demnand that the comitte will make a report without any recomendations and will not make it binding.

Furthermore, we wanted the report to be presented to us prior to it's publication.

[Sirotnikov]

and these are actions from a nation without anything to hide? Yeah, right...

I'm sure that each nation wants to be treated fairly.

Panang, ahh, yes, the IDF, known for how fair and just it is... Oh, wait, it is not? It is in fact 100% beind the actions of its soliders, whether they are raping, pillaging or murdering?

Evidence?

Let me give you evidence to the contrary.

Several dozen soldiers are now facing trial on counts of pillaging and stealing.

raping- there were never, ever rapes in IDF actions. Not in invented massacares like Jenin, and not in real ones like Deir Yassin.

As far as murder goes - IDF does punish soldiers who follow clearly illegal orders. It has been doing so and will continue.

The clearly illegal order court decision was made in 1956 following a massacare in Kefar Kassem, following an illegal murder of enforcing a curfew using lethal means.

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
And since everyone who doesn't agree that jews are ubermensch and have the right to kill and enslave the rest of the world is an anti-semite, the commission was bound to contain 'anti-semites'. doesn't really matter if Israel asked for it or not, if this was their reasoning.

BTW, the UN DID put in more military personell, etc, but the main stumbling blocks were the proviions from the Israeli goverment that
A) the committe could only look at evidence the Israeli goverment approved.
B) israeli soldiers were immune to indictment to war crimes.

and these are actions from a nation without anything to hide? Yeah, right...


as for what happened, I'm not going to argue that part. I'm content that amnesty, HRR etc have done their leg work.


Panang, ahh, yes, the IDF, known for how fair and just it is... Oh, wait, it is not? It is in fact 100% beind the actions of its soliders, whether they are raping, pillaging or murdering? Oh, well, I'm certainly looking forward to that impartial and honest investigation then...

hi ,

well , care to come and join us , so you have a first hand report , that you then can tell the whole world , ....????

of course , i would just love to see your face , after spending the night in a bunker , cause the incoming rockets and mortar's , ya have to ditch some sniper fire for breakfast , then around the afternoon , just after lunch , while drinking a beer on the seaside , a bus goes up , and that what's left fall's in front of your face , their goes lunch , at night after a movie , where your earndrums sayed "adios" , because some guy blew himself up ,
you stumble on the remains of a couple humans , ....

i like to see your face , ..............

you are always wellcome , .......

oh yeah , the IDF , be carefull , its nothing more then a buch of killers without any control , ....

ya still want to come , ...........

oh , if you would come , i know a special base in the Negev , not on a map , their is some soldiers there , one of them is guy , 19 years , sergeant , he can do 28 years , why , well , last year he trew a stone at a kid while on leave , .........., videotape shows it was selfdefense , .....oh yeah , no parole here , ...........


have a nice day

[CyberGnu]

Ahh, siro, siro, siro... when will you learn that your media is lying to you?

try this link:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/01/un.jenin.sticking.points/index.html

or this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/748335.asp

or this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/02/international/middleeast/02NATI.html

(particularly the last paragraph).

these are the three of the five biggest news agencies in the US...

when will you learn that your goverment and your media leads you on with their consistent lies and propaganda?


Talking about propaganda, I think you and me both know that the 'trials' for IDf soliders are only for show. They never actually lead to conviction. Every atrocity, no matter how calucalted and gruesome, is written off as 'bad **** happens in times of war'. quite frankly, a court system that fails to sentence sharon to lifetime in jail has no moral authority whatsoever.


panang, I don't quite get your point. being in combat is horrible, therefore Israle has the right to kill and enslave their neighbour? I just don't see the logical connection there.

On the ocntrary, I think one could make a good case that since combat is so horrible, israel should do the just thing and end the conflict...

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ahh, siro, siro, siro... when will you learn that your media is lying to you?

try this link:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/01/un.jenin.sticking.points/index.html

or this:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/748335.asp

or this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/02/international/middleeast/02NATI.html

(particularly the last paragraph).

these are the three of the five biggest news agencies in the US...

when will you learn that your goverment and your media leads you on with their consistent lies and propaganda?


Talking about propaganda, I think you and me both know that the 'trials' for IDf soliders are only for show. They never actually lead to conviction. Every atrocity, no matter how calucalted and gruesome, is written off as 'bad **** happens in times of war'. quite frankly, a court system that fails to sentence sharon to lifetime in jail has no moral authority whatsoever.


panang, I don't quite get your point. being in combat is horrible, therefore Israle has the right to kill and enslave their neighbour? I just don't see the logical connection there.

On the ocntrary, I think one could make a good case that since combat is so horrible, israel should do the just thing and end the conflict...

hi ,

ones again , why dont you come yourself to see ????

have a nice day