Human Rights Watch: No evidence of massacre in Jenin

[klesh]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
FMK: it's been this way around here for around 80 years. why stop now? And I won't stop it either , because here , the one that blinks first loses, and however terrible the fight , noone can take a step back. I can tell you with certainty the jews can't.

Wow, you seem really ready for a solution. Have fun dying, man.
(And no I do not hope you die, and sincerely hope no more people do. But I also realize the futility of that position to the groups involved here.)

-FMK.

[Lorizael]

I don't understand why people hate one another. What does this hate do? How does this hate that everyone has for each other in any way help the situation. How does hating someone else improve life?

Sure, the Israelis probably shouldn't have seized territory. And sure, the Palestinians should probably employ a method of protest other than suicide bombings.

But why does any of that matter? None of those facts are of any importance in the long run. The only fact that matters is that two peoples are slowly eraditcating themselves. And what needs to be dealt with is not the fact that there may or may not have been a massacre at Jenin. Not that Israelis occupy that town or that Palestinians killed that many children. The only thing of any importance is that the violence stops immediately. Everything else is simply on the periphery.

[klesh]

Word.

[Eli]

The eurocoms will of course believe...

JENIN REFUGEE CAMP, West Bank –– For the benefit of foreign visitors and U.N. investigators, much of the fresh graffiti in this Palestinian refugee camp is in English these days, not Arabic; and it's uncharacteristically placid, almost polite.

Battered by a fierce battle between Palestinian gunmen and Israeli troops, the Jenin refugee camp – a bastion of militancy – has gone to great lengths to project an image of moderation for its visitors, and in preparation for a visit by a U.N. team mandated to probe Israel's military operations in the camp.

Israel on Sunday decided not to allow the team to come to the region, repeating its objections to the team's composition and charging that its findings would certainly blame Israel. The Israelis said consultations with the world body would continue over the makeup of the team and the scope of its inquiry.

The team was to look into claims that hundreds of Palestinians, many of them civilians, were killed during the April 3-11 battle either in heavy shelling or buried alive when giant bulldozers moved in to bring down homes suspected of sheltering gunmen.

Israel, which lost 23 men in the battle, says several dozen Palestinians died, mostly gunmen. So far, nearly 50 Palestinian bodies have been recovered, according to the Jenin hospital.

The battle was fought as part of an Israeli military campaign launched March 29 to hunt militants in the West Bank following a series of particularly lethal suicide bombings.

The Palestinians are making sure that whoever visits the Jenin refugee camp – those who have already been include members of the European Parliament, U.S. church leaders, Amnesty International Secretary-General Irene Khan and Bianca Jagger, ex-wife of pop music legend Mick Jagger – reads the right slogans and sees the right stuff.

"We love Palestine" and "Palestine is for the Palestinians" read two of the new English-language slogans on the walls of the Jenin camp – very different from the venomous and warlike graffiti that has for years threatened "rivers of blood" or "opening the gates of hell" on the walls of every Palestinian town, village and refugee camp.

An old graffito declaring that "Osama bin Laden is a hero" has been painted over. Bin Laden is thought by the United States to be the architect of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, events that sent a few dozen Palestinians publicly celebrating on the day much to the dismay of many, including Yasser Arafat's administration.

In the huge mound of debris and rubble that was the heart of the Jenin camp, several families spend their days just sitting at the spot where their homes once stood. Huge Palestinian flags together with those of different Palestinian factions and militias are hoisted over buildings of which parts are still standing.

Israeli military sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, say the Palestinians have taken measures to "prepare" the Jenin camp for the arrival of the U.N. team.

The preparations, they say, include instructions to residents who had lost their homes to spend the day where their houses once stood and to halt any reconstruction of damaged houses so the U.N. team can see the extent of the destruction. Palestinian gunmen left in the camp, they said, have been instructed not to engage in any military activity for the duration of the U.N. team's visit.

Palestinian Jenin lawmaker Jamal al-Shati denied that Palestinian authorities were trying to "flirt" with the U.N. team or important visitors, arguing that the fresh slogans and the camp residents spending their days on the mounds of debris were spontaneous and emotional acts of a people in distress.

"We don't need to do any of this," al-Shati, a senior member Arafat's Fatah movement, told The Associated Press. "If every member of the U.N. is blind, the magnitude of the crime in Jenin will restore their sight."

[Ecowiz Returns]

Source, please.

And the point of you post is?

[Eli]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A149-2002Apr29.html

[Ecowiz Returns]

Thanks for the source.

I'm missing the point, tough.

What exactly do you think is important in that piece of infromation?

[Arrian]

There is some Dutch organization that has studied the camp and determined that there was no "massacre" but that war crimes were committed, such as not allowing medical treatment of the wounded.

edit: link - http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/isra020430.html

-Arrian

[klesh]

Dr Cohen says the fact that he's Jewish didn't particularly work to his advantage.

"Especially because I'm Jewish, I've been questioned why I should be a traitor to my own people. I try to explain to the soldiers that I'm not pro or anti someone but just looking for the truth."

Why would he be a traitor in the Israeli's eyes if he is just there looking at something they feel was an ok event?

-FMK.

[CyberGnu]

can't help but make the observation that when the five year old settler kid died, it was an ourtage and a horrible crime. When several palestinian kids died, it was 'stray bullets' and 'inevitable in a warzone'.

How can you write such things and not choke in disgust, Eli?

[Natan]

How can you write the opposite, Cyber?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
can't help but make the observation that when the five year old settler kid died, it was an ourtage and a horrible crime. When several palestinian kids died, it was 'stray bullets' and 'inevitable in a warzone'.

How can you write such things and not choke in disgust, Eli?

well everyone supports his side, and I bet that Pals are seen less and less as human by the Israelis (and their victimes are most likely just the reduction in number of terrorists - moral rethoric)

What else you can expect when emotions are at play and noone can blame them for that, that is war. Reason cedes and lunacy flourishes. And the leadership is the only one which can lead the people out of that mess.

The solution is like marriagge... make a divorce and move out. I bet it would be the best that Israel (rich)buys Pals some quality land of some poor african country and sets up Palestine #2 over there ! At least they will not keep on killing each other.

Build them a couple of cities with infrastruicture and that's all... either that or a wall



maybe a new government could also help...

[CyberGnu]

Natan, actually I haven't.

but to elaborate, who is to blame for the death of the palestinian children? Not the soliders who killed them, unless they actually did it deliberately, but the leaders who sent the soliders there in the first place.

What was that nice slogan? if you kill a child, you are a murderer. If you kill a hundred children, you are an Israeli politician.

[CyberGnu]

OneFoot,

you might want to remember your reply next time siro starts screaming about how the arabs 'inflame hatred against israel'.

furthermore, should Israel be allowed to stayon land it stole because it is rich? why not propose a moral solution to the problem, like relocating Israel to Nevada?

or florida, isn't that pretty much jewish anyway? Well, except for the cubans, I guess... which would give the former Israelis a new race of subhumans to kill and subjucate... damn, that wouldn't work. Well, back to nevada then.

[CyberGnu]

Natan, almost forgot, you didn't answer my question.