Theory of Evolution Should have never been a part (Civ3)! Part 2

[monkspider]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ethelred

Your misquotation is going beyond the bound of accident. I didn't say that and I am through responding to the falsified version of what I said. Do it again I won't pretend its an accident.

\
Strange, you seemed to be accepting this so-called "misquotation" as fact in a past post.

The Bible is wrong. Its that simple.

Good job Ethel

The Bible was assembled from parts after the Diaspora. Any disproven prophecies were left out.

I would love to see ten pieces of evidence validating this. I don't think it's possible..but I would love to see them

Does not fit the challenge. Exactly the sort of prediction that any downtrodden people would make anyway.

Says who, you?

Does not fit the challenge. Exactly the sort of prediction that any downtrodden people would make anyway.

See above

May have had dates massaged after the fact as well. You certainly do that yourself so I see no reason to think others that believe wouldn't do the same.

*MAY* have, i love how your "evidence" is rooted in what might have been.

Does not fit the challenge. Exactly the sort of prediction that any downtrodden people would make anyway.

See above

.

Your version of the Bible has been altered.

Is this the same bible that has "Noe" instead of Noah?

false. As even you say the prediction was for 430 years. Thats a failed prophecy. It matters not what excuses someone comes up with later the fact of the matter is that it didn't happen.

Re-read my post, it is not a matter of "excuses"

subject to alteration over time.

Again, no proof for these wild statements

Does not fit the challenge. There is no reason except the claim in the New Testament to believe Jesus was born is Bethalem.

Again, a case of throwing out wild allegations

Here is a failed prophecy from the chapter before that I spoted while checking number 10.

Isa 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

n the first Jehovah says Cain will be a vagabond forever.

Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment [is] greater than I can bear.

Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, [that] every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon

Then

Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

This is not a vagabond being described there. He get married, has children and founds a city. If that isn't a failed prophecy nothing is.

Vagabond vag·a·bond Pronunciation Key (vg-bnd)
n.

A person without a permanent home who moves from place to place.
A vagrant; a tramp.
A wanderer; a rover.

Just because he founds a city and has a wife doesn't mean that he isn't, in the larger sense, a wanderer. I could be wandering around and happen to found a city and meet a hot chick.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Ethelred


The same question applies to the beginning of the Universe. How can causality be apply to how it came about?

That which began to exist has a cause.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Ethelred


There is not one sign on Earth on in the Bible that Jehovah is omibenevolent. .

Nonsense, with God there everything would be morally indifferent. We would just be nihilistic creatures of nature.

There is no absolute right and wrong in the Bible either. Just look at the punishments for rape.

Rape is frowned upon, where are you going with this?

Nonsense. Just ask a Serb what is moral to do to a Croate.

There may be some people who are morally indifferent to what people as a whole are not. This is irrelevant. Also, I think any Serbs at this forum would take offense to have their race portrayed in such a light.

Not in the Bible. Jehovah demands at one point for the Jews to kill everone in a city.

The people listed for complete destruction in Deuteronomy were the most wicked and vile people to ever exist on the earth, at least until our own modern era. The Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites and Jebusites were the scum of the earth. (We will refer to them as Canaanite Nations.)

These nations had turned completely away from the God of Noah and had become thoroughly pagan. Their lives were filled with demonic religious beliefs and practices.

The religious Temples were filled with sexual orgies involving temple prostitutes (male and female) engaged in heterosexual, homosexual and bestial sex. The utter perversion involved child sexual abuse and sadomasochistic practices.

Moreover, these people threatened the existance of the Jews, who were assigned to be the people to carry God's word. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to go with God's judgement. Surely, you don't question why we fought people as evil as the Nazis?

There are no objective moral values especially in the Bible.

Good show Ethel. That's sig material.

You are getting more illogical with each post.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Not in the Bible. Jehovah demands at one point for the Jews to kill everone in a city.

The people listed for complete destruction in Deuteronomy were the most wicked and vile people to ever exist on the earth, at least until our own modern era. The Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites and Jebusites were the scum of the earth. (We will refer to them as Canaanite Nations.)

And the Nazis made similar comments about the Jews.

These nations had turned completely away from the God of Noah and had become thoroughly pagan. Their lives were filled with demonic religious beliefs and practices.

So even the children had to be exterminated because their parents worshipped the wrong gods?

The religious Temples were filled with sexual orgies involving temple prostitutes (male and female) engaged in heterosexual, homosexual and bestial sex. The utter perversion involved child sexual abuse and sadomasochistic practices.

And the Jews were performing human sacrifices in those days.

Moreover, these people threatened the existance of the Jews, who were assigned to be the people to carry God's word. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to go with God's judgement. Surely, you don't question why we fought people as evil as the Nazis?

Did you slaughter the entire male population of Germany and carry off their female virgins?

However, in addition to the usual propaganda, the Bible also makes it quite clear that the reason is simple "ethnic cleansing": they were exterminated because they were in the way. There was a double standard based on geographical location:

Deuteronomy 20:13-16 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by monkspider
Strange, you seemed to be accepting this so-called "misquotation" as fact in a past post.

That is a lie. I never accepted and it pointed out that it was false.

Well I guess it should come as no suprise that someone that is rewriting the Bible should rewrite what I said to mean something else too.

You are a liar monkspider.

Good job Ethel

Its always good to tell the truth. You should try it some time.

I would love to see ten pieces of evidence validating this. I don't think it's possible..but I would love to see them

You would just make something up to cover up the truth again based on you present behaviour.

Its not my fault you are ignorant. The New Testament and the christians version of the Old Testament was assembeled when Constintine requested 50 copies of the scriptures. Prior to that there was no single collection of the parts that eventually became the Bible. More parts were added later to the version that was made for Constantine. Many writings were left out such as the Gnostic Gospel.

The Jews did the same around the same time for their version of the Bible.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/cea.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A307487

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A307487

I think thats enough. After all you didn't meet my challenge.

Says who, you?

I made the challenge. You did not meet it. As for the statement that any downtrodden people would say that. Well its exceedingly obvious. Only a closed mind could doubt it.

[QUOTE]
*MAY* have, i love how your "evidence" is rooted in what might have been. [QUOTE]

I love how you assert that the Flood might have been allegory despite the evidence against you. Its a FACT that parts of the Bible were left out. Its a fact that the opportunity to revise was there. There is no way to know what was done. However it is known that some things have been modified by christians. Josephus has a passage calling Jesus the Messiah. Which is ridiculous since Josephus clearly did not believe that. The version of Josephus with this highly suspect passage came from Eusebius. The same Eusebius that produced the 50 copies of scripture for Constantine.

Is this the same bible that has "Noe" instead of Noah?

No its your version with the alterations. I used the King James Version. I also looked at the Greek. Its clearly just a diffenence of spelling.

As I said the difference between your version and the KJV in this case could be justified. In fact its nearly identical. The odd thing was your interpretation of what it said rather than your source.

I can't help it if you can't read without changing the words of the Bible just as you distorted my words.

Re-read my post, it is not a matter of "excuses"

Re read my post. It was a patch job on a failed prophecy with a lot deliberate changing of dates and ingnoring vast swaths of time to force fit things. The original prophecy was false. Nothing can be done to change those false prophecies now. To bad the assemblers failed to notice this one. They could have changed it before it was made the standard.

Failed prophecy. And a bad patch job.

Again, no proof for these wild statements

Except that there is lots of proof. You just didn't know about it. Its not my fault you didn't try to meet the challenge. If you had tried this wouldn't have come up. Now you mind will be polluted with truth though I am sure you will distort just as you distort so much else.

Look at the links above. I made no wild statements.

Again, a case of throwing out wild allegations

Again a case of telling the truth. There is only gospel that claims Jesus was born in Nazareth and the gosple of John disagrees with that claim.

Are you calling John wild?

Just because he founds a city and has a wife doesn't mean that he isn't, in the larger sense, a wanderer. I could be wandering around and happen to found a city and meet a hot chick.

You would no longer be a vagabond at that point. Cain wasn't.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by monkspider

That which began to exist has a cause.

That applies to any god as well. Just saying it was outside of space and time does not make that go away since the same exact claim can be made for the Metaverse from which the Universe arose. Same for the mathematics that rules our present Universe and the hypothetical Metaverse which is just as likely as a god.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
I'm not saying that I'm on the creationists side. I'm not even saying that I worship any "God". I am saying that while both theories are in some places flawed, both theories DO have areas which cannot possibly be disproven, and that includes Creationism.

Two things:

1. How is Creationism a conherent scientific theory? It is not. I have yet to see it framed that way. Heck, it is not even a hypothesis.

2. Again, the burden of proof lies with the proponents, not opponents. Creationists are very fond of telling us that.

Originally posted by LordAzreal
And creationism doesn't simply revolve around YHWH, Jehova or Allah (those three are pretty much the same anyway). The purest form, the true form of creationism means that a supreme being of some sort somehow created the world. This supreme being could be a superior race of extra-terrestrials experimenting with sentient life for all we know.

Creationism (with the capital "C") denotes a literal interpretation of Genesis. Other forms of creationism might denote something else, just like God vs god.

Originally posted by LordAzreal
No. I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all. What do unicorns and dragons have to do with spirituality?

That was a response to your accusation of "narrowmindedness," not of spirtuality.

Originally posted by LordAzreal
Another example of narrow-mindedness is your "assumptions" of spirituality. Have you even read into anything to do with Spirituality?

What are my assumptions of "sprituality?"

Originally posted by LordAzreal
Have you ever heard out people like the Dalai Lama?

How does Dalai Lama got to do with it?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
Spirituality is the path to enlightenment, and development of the soul.

So what is enligtenment and soul to you?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
To some, the worship of a "god" is a means to that end. To others, it isn't. The rest, don't have it, or it lies dormant within their being, creating the illusion that it doesn't.

What's this "it?" "Spirtuality?" If it is as defined by you, as " path to enlightenment," (whatever enlightenment is), how could it not exist for some individuals?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
I'm not saying that those who believe in a supernatural creator hold a monopoly on spirituality. I am a Buddhist. Whether or not a supreme being created the universe means absolutely nothing to me at all. It has no effect on how I live my life. And I don't see the sense in people hurting each other over this.

How does the debate over the existence of a supernatural entity "hurt" those who blindly believe in such an entity?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
I say that those who insult the spiritual ones are narrow-minded because they aren't letting them believe what they want.

Again, you somehow hold that the belief in a supernatural entity to be equivalent to "spirituality." How does that work?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
You are an evolutionist. Fine. That's no problem. Stop ramming your beliefs down everyone's throats. Sure the creationists do it too, but AN EYE FOR AN EYE IS NOT JUSTICE!!!

Evolution is not a belief. Furthermore, do you hold that it is a mistake to dispel untenable philosophical positions?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
That's what my side of the argument is. You can't just whack insults around like a tennis-ball in a heated match between Sampras and Agassi.

What insults?

Originally posted by LordAzreal
You can all believe what you want to believe, but just leave it at that.

How is evolution a belief?

[-=Vagrant=-]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What insults?

He must be talking about those rational and reasonable comments and questions you made.

[Ethelred]

Nonsense, with God there everything would be morally indifferent. We would just be nihilistic creatures of nature.

Well we allready know that Jehovah has done little for your morals. We are creatures of nature. Nihilism is for losers.

Morals are human. Not divine. No human has massacered as many as the Bible has Jehovah doing. The whole human race except eight. Thats pretty bad morals.

Rape is frowned upon, where are you going with this?

Frowned up yes. Not exactly a horrible punishment being frowned on. If you don't know where I am going you haven't read the Bible.

Lot offered his two daughter to be raped by a mob. He did not ask his daughters therefor he offering rape.

Lots of things in Deuteronomy chapter 22. It tiptoes around the word rape though.

The Bible never actually uses the word rape but its fairly clear that is what is being discussed in some places.

There may be some people who are morally indifferent to what people as a whole are not. This is irrelevant. Also, I think any Serbs at this forum would take offense to have their race portrayed in such a light.

Too bad for the Serbs that don't want to accept the reality of what happened in Yugoslavia. Serbs are a nationality not a race.

It is relevant. In fact if you check prison populations you find far less Agnostics and Atheist than in the general population. Plenty of christians though. Which is contrary to your thesis that morals come from god. I have no god and I am moral. You however keep lying about things I said. I guess your morals do come from Jehovah. He thought nothing of killing innocents as can be seen in Exodus and the Flood and many other places in the Bible.

The people listed for complete destruction in Deuteronomy were the most wicked and vile people to ever exist on the earth, at least until our own modern era. The Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites and Jebusites were the scum of the earth. (We will refer to them as Canaanite Nations.)

Israel was no better. They were just not as good at conquest. You sure are certain that the Israelites would never have done a spin job on their enemies aren't you? Keep in mind that EVERYONE was killed including the children. Children are inherently innocent of the crimes of their of their parents. So by your standards then its OK to kill infants if their parents are nasty.

Moreover, these people threatened the existance of the Jews, who were assigned to be the people to carry God's word. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to go with God's judgement. Surely, you don't question why we fought people as evil as the Nazis?

I have serious doubts about the Jews descriptions of their enemies. They lied about the Philistines so why not others. We did not exterminate everyone in Germany. We did not deliberatly murder every single man, woman, and child after we beat them. We try to be moral the Jews were not even close to moral in this instance. We only have the Jews word that they are chosen people of god in any case. If the Bible is full of errors, as it is, it is likely that this claim is another error. There must be a Jehovah for there to be a chosen people of Jehovah.

Good show Ethel. That's sig material.

Just because its true I wouldn't use it for a sig. Wait till hit 500 posts and you see the image I used to use on the Maximum PC forums before they did away with such things. I would more likely quote Hawkings or Darwin.

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Creationism (with the capital "C") denotes a literal interpretation of Genesis. Other forms of creationism might denote something else, just like God vs god.

My creation beliefs [i]ARE[i] derived from these 'other' forms. These other forms aren't being represented in this argument as much as the more farfetched Book of Genesis forms. And that was the point I'm making.

That was a response to your accusation of "narrowmindedness," not of spirtuality.

Sorry, I guess I misread. But using dragons and unicorns in your argument sounded narrow-minded when you were discussing 'spirituality'.

How does Dalai Lama got to do with it?

He has the right ideas on what we call spirituality. He was just an example I used in trying to explain spirituality.

So what is enligtenment and soul to you?

Hard to explain really. It would end up too deep for the sake of this creation vs. evolution argument.

What's this "it?" "Spirtuality?" If it is as defined by you, as " path to enlightenment," (whatever enlightenment is), how could it not exist for some individuals?

I didn't say it doesn't exist for some. It simply appears that way sometimes. But everyone has their own path to follow.

How does the debate over the existence of a supernatural entity "hurt" those who blindly believe in such an entity?

It may sound like arrogance on such people's part, but it hurts them to be bluntly and directly told "You are WRONG!". Its in our nature as human beings to want to be right all the time. They're entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. I lost count of how many times I've had to say that in this argument.

Again, you somehow hold that the belief in a supernatural entity to be equivalent to "spirituality." How does that work?

To some people, they feel their souls are better off in the presence of a supernatural entity, or a 'god'.

Evolution is not a belief. Furthermore, do you hold that it is a mistake to dispel untenable philosophical positions?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it is a mistake to be so blunt in saying "You are WRONG!". And how isn't Evolution a belief.

What insults?

Did I say insults? Damn. I exaggerated a little. Nevermind.

How is evolution a belief?

Again, how isn't it a belief? It is something people believe in. Isn't that what a belief is?



Anyway, I've had it. This debate is going on too long, with no progress being made either way. I'm trying to maintain a position as a third party observer making the occasional comment, such as "Evolution has its flaws", and "The Bible can't possibly count as evidence in this debate... go and look for other proof" to try and set new directions. And now I've been pulled down into this argument. Now, I'm hoisting myself out. Goodbye all, and I hope that the argument gets resolved soon (either way... it doesn't matter). I'm unsubscribing to this thread and no longer looking at it. Don't bother replying to anything I say because I'm not interested anymore.

[Urban Ranger]

Monkspider,

I was going to write some long-winded critique of your post, but I had a change of heart. Consider my formulation of the Problem of Evil:

1. The Christian god is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing [Orthodox Christian doctrines]

2. An all-good being will attempt to maximise good by eradicating evil

3. An all-powerful being has the ability to eradicate evil

4. An all-knowing being knows how to eradicate evil

5. Therefore, evil does not coexist with an all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing being

6. Evil exists

7. Therefore, God does not exist


-=Vagrant=-,

[Ethelred]

It may sound like arrogance on such people's part, but it hurts them to be bluntly and directly told "You are WRONG!". Its in our nature as human beings to want to be right all the time. They're entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. I lost count of how many times I've had to say that in this argument.

They are entitled to believe whatever they want. No one is denying that. Not here anyway.

It is the nature of a debate that someone will be called wrong. We all freely chose to enter the discussion. You included. No one is using force of any kind. Unless you consider the use of logic to be a force.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Monkspider,

I was going to write some long-winded critique of your post, but I had a change of heart. Consider my formulation of the Problem of Evil:

1. The Christian god is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing [Orthodox Christian doctrines]

2. An all-good being will attempt to maximise good by eradicating evil

3. An all-powerful being has the ability to eradicate evil

4. An all-knowing being knows how to eradicate evil

5. Therefore, evil does not coexist with an all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing being

6. Evil exists

7. Therefore, God does not exist


-=Vagrant=-,

funny

This brings me to the concept that if there is an being existing outside space and time manipulating our perception of reality, isn't really so smart, so all-powerful or so all-seeing. Maybe its (borrowing from O Brother Where Art Thou) dumber than a bag of hammers.

A ****** god, possibly gone mad due to an eternity with no company. Drooling and uttering nonsensical or lunatic ravings.

Just maybe...

and people worship it.

[Tolls]

"A ****** god, possibly gone mad due to an eternity with no company. Drooling and uttering nonsensical or lunatic ravings. "

Sounds like one of the Cthulhu-esque Outer Gods (or whatever their called)...

[Tolls]

"Azathoth - The Blind Idiot God

Ruler of the outer Gods, Azathoth has existed since the beginning of the universe, dwelling beyond normal space and time, where its amorphous body writhes unceasingly to the monotonous piping of a flute.
"