Tension between Canada and the U.S.?

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Be careful. They'll burn your capital again

Or we'll send Celine Dion on a 2 years cross America tour...

[Bereta_Eder]

You are indeed heartless and cruel

[Arrian]

Celine Dion?!? The Horror! Please... no... anything but that! Reparations? No problem, how much do you want? How about New Jersey? Want it?

-Arrian

[Tingkai]

We've already inflicted them with Anne Murray. Isn't that enough.

[Guynemer]

I would like to point out with no small amount of glee that the Detroit teams won both games in question.

[Tingkai]

Enjoy it while you can. The Red Wings are going down.

[notyoueither]

Not to dredge up old wounds (that aren't so old) but as for sound bites, try this:

'There is no absolute sure way to protect ground soldiers from this type of fratricide.' Single quotes because I typed it out after seeing the bite from the CO of the PPCLI in Afghanistan.

OTOH, I had a chance to talk to an NCO in the PPCLI today.

How is the mood on the base?

'Sombre'

What are the feelings about the Americans?

'Pfff. [visible anger, regains composure]. If only they had better training.' Or something to that effect.

For those who do not know. The PPCLI is the regiment of the soldiers killed and wounded. They are based in Edmonton (where I live).

[Tingkai]

I don't think anyone has disputed the fact that it impossible to completely prevent all deaths from friendly fire, but this doesn't mean that these deaths are completely unavoidable, particularly when the deaths occur on a training ground rather than on the frontlines.

Based on the information that we know, I would say that it is reasonable to say the deaths of the four Canadians soldiers should have been avoided.

One question being raised is whether there was technology that could have helped prevent these deaths. A magazine has claimed that US troops are equipped with Friend-or-foe-identification beacons. The PPCLI CO says American and Canadian troops do not have this technology.

[notyoueither]

A few US divisions have the equipment. The CO of the PPCLI said he never heard of it.

Yes, should have been avoided. In a perfect world. Unfortunately, 'perfect' very seldom describes a war zone.

Is one of the problems that not even the Yanks have the equipment fully deployed to keep up with their ability to kill?

[Tingkai]

It's not a question of a perfect world. In a perfect world that would be no fraticide.

What we're talking about is four men dead in an accident that could have been and should have been avoided.

At that very least, I hope the Americans finally learn some lessons from this accident. If their deaths results in changes that prevent future fraticide then their deaths will not have been in vain.

[notyoueither]

TK. Ask yourself this. Given 10,000 situations such as the F16 and the Canadians, how do you ensure that no pilot ever drops the bomb?

The unfortunate truth is that a war zone is 1000's of these situations every day. A human ultimately makes a decision in almost all of those situations. Given enough situations, a human will err and people will die due to friendly fire.

Did the pilot f*ck up? Did he ignore orders? Did he ignore procedure? Was he incompetent? Maybe yes to 1 through 4. In that case there will be a court martial. Maybe no, maybe he made a bad decision for the right reasons. It happens.

The fact is that war offers no comfort for mistakes. People die. It has always been thus. Canadians have killed Canadians due to mistakes.

[Tingkai]

In the months after Pearl Harbor, American pilots were being shot out of the skies by the Japanese.

The Americans could have taken your attitude: "The fact is that war offers no comfort for mistakes. People die. It has always been thus." They could have said: sure we lost 10 guys today, but we did hundreds of sorties.

But the Americans were smart. They looked at what was happening and changed the way they operated. As a result, fewer American pilots died.

Your attitude of "**** happens, let's move on" simply leads to more "**** happening."

When the Airborne had its problem in Somalia, we didn't say "oh it's just a few bad apples, let's forget about it." No, we looked at the situation and found there was a systematic problem and we took steps to correct the problems.

Just because they died in a war zone doesn't mean their deaths could have been prevented.

You seem so wrapped up in defending the Americans that you can't see this basic truth.

Do you really believe the rubbish you're writing or are you just a troll?

[notyoueither]

Relax TK, your panties are in a knot.

I am saying that people will die accidentally in any high risk area. A war zone qualifies as 'high risk' don't you think?

I am not 'defending Americans'. Americans need no defence. 'An American' is on the hot plate. I hope that he was not a f*ck-up. That would be tragic.

You're arguement about the American conduct of the air war in the Pacific in 1942 is non-sequitor. Not worth talking about. It does not apply.

re the Airbourne in Somalia. Yes, an enquiry can be useful. But no amount of enquiry ever will render a war-zone a safe place. Mr. Rogers doesn't live there.

[Tingkai]

Tell you what little boy. Go talk to the PPCLI and tell them that "Oh well, people will die accidentally in any high risk area. **** happens nothing can be done about it." Ask them if they think the US military should review its procedures to try to prevent this from happening again."

If you get a bit older and if you get wiser, you will learn that there is something called acceptable risk. An aircraft on active duty killing four men in a designated training area is not an acceptable risk.

As for your panties comment, it clearly indicates a difference between us. I care about the men and women who volunteer to serve our country. You, for reasons I cannot even fathom, obviously do not.

[notyoueither]

"If you get a bit older and if you get wiser" OK junior.

Well, actually, bud. I know quite a few of them. Care to have me relay a message? In fact, most soldiers know they are in for some risk when they sign up. Either that or they are brain-dead.

Yes, the members of the regiment are a little raw right now on the subject of American training. Can't say I blame them. Do they think they should be given a 'get out of service free' card? I doubt it.

The funny thing about this whole dialouge is that if you knew your *ss from a stump you would have shut up a long time ago.