Ethnicity

[Sava]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Serb


It can be explained. USA is the wealthiest country in the world. The poorer the country, the more ethnic tensions it have, but if something realy bad happen at even such wealth country as USA, people forget about their fine ideals and principles and start to hate and blame their coutrymens for what happen, only because they are descenders from different country.

90 percent of the United States isn't any wealthier than the rest of the world on average. Our free market economy has just allowed monster corporatations to gain the wealth of the world.

The US has a lot of ethnic tensions regardless of the amount of wealth. In fact, I think the United States could be ranked in the top 5 of highest ethnic tensions. But I don't see how someone who has never been to America can even comment on what it is like.

[Serb]

But I don't see how someone who has never been to America can even comment on what it is like

Hi Sava,
I'm glad to see you too.
Still dreaming about for WW3?

[Rogan Josh]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Sikander
Well I suppose this is true in Europe when there are Jews around to blame. Most Americans don't identify themselves ethnically and therefore aren't as open to the sort of paranoia / hate you are talking about.

You guys need to stop watching so much Fox News. I am pretty sure that the racist attacks against Jews here in Europe were considerably less than the recent attacks against arabs in the US.

In fact, I would say that Europe is significantly less racist than the US. This is a hard statement to make, since I am sure that degrees of racism that vary quite widely within the both the US and Europe, so I am sure that parts of Europe will be more racist than parts of the US and vice versa. However, one of the things which has always shocked me about the US when visiting it is how racist the society is (although I have never been to the west coast).

I don't mean overtly racist, which overt discrimination or segregation, but just in people's mindset. There seems to be much more emphasis on race as defining who you are. The original poster, for example identifies himself as 'Dutch-American' and I I have heard other refer to themselves similarly ('African-American' or 'Chinese-American' or 'Italian-Armerican' or 'Irish-American' etc). Now, of course, there is nothing wrong with identifying with your ancestry as long as you don't don't discriminate against others, so maybe 'racist' is the wrong word to use, but you know what I mean...

By contrast, I am not aware of this mindset in Europe. I don't think of my 'black' friends, for example, as being any different to anyone else, just as I don't feel any differnent because I have fair hair. And if you asked them for their nationality or cultural identity they would say 'French' or 'British' or whatever (I presume - I have never actually asked them....)

[Sikander]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

You guys need to stop watching so much Fox News. I am pretty sure that the racist attacks against Jews here in Europe were considerably less than the recent attacks against arabs in the US.

I don't get cable, and thus no Fox. I do watch the BBC world service though, and it helps me understand how you guys get such a warped opinion about the U.S. As for the attacks on Arabs, without statistics we are both just pis$ing in the wind, and at the complete mercy of our media driven feelings. Btw, I wasn't referring to the recent anti-semitic outburst in Europe, but the historical anti-jew pogroms.

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
In fact, I would say that Europe is significantly less racist than the US. This is a hard statement to make, since I am sure that degrees of racism that vary quite widely within the both the US and Europe, so I am sure that parts of Europe will be more racist than parts of the US and vice versa. However, one of the things which has always shocked me about the US when visiting it is how racist the society is (although I have never been to the west coast).

I don't mean overtly racist, which overt discrimination or segregation, but just in people's mindset. There seems to be much more emphasis on race as defining who you are. The original poster, for example identifies himself as 'Dutch-American' and I I have heard other refer to themselves similarly ('African-American' or 'Chinese-American' or 'Italian-Armerican' or 'Irish-American' etc). Now, of course, there is nothing wrong with identifying with your ancestry as long as you don't don't discriminate against others, so maybe 'racist' is the wrong word to use, but you know what I mean...

I don't doubt that you think you are less racist in Europe. It's easy to feel that way when your societies are in so little danger of changing quickly, and your core values are under as much assault by academia as by the surge of muslims. The U.S. is much more ethnically diverse than Europe, which means we are in a constant state of tension (which is good and bad btw).

What you are trying to describe above seems to be (to you) a heightened awareness of one's ethnic identity. This is exactly what I am arguing is counterproductive, and in no way should be given the approval much less the full support of the government. Btw, when a white American who is more than 1 or 2 generations away from the old country mentions their ancestry to you, it is in all likelihood an effort to make conversation, and usually has almost nothing to do with their identity, which is firmly wrapped up in one of the American styles of being. We may know where our ancestors came from, but we sure as hell aren't going back there except as tourists or conquerers.

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
By contrast, I am not aware of this mindset in Europe. I don't think of my 'black' friends, for example, as being any different to anyone else, just as I don't feel any differnent because I have fair hair. And if you asked them for their nationality or cultural identity they would say 'French' or 'British' or whatever (I presume - I have never actually asked them....)

Well I don't think of my friends as being members of a particular ethnic group either. Ask any of them their national identity and you will get the answer 'American' every time. Ask them their ethnic identity and some will answer 'African-American' or 'Mexican-American' etc., and most will give you a blank look as they try to think of something to say other than American in vain. After three generations or so most of us are so mixed up that there is no other answer.

[mactbone]

I call myself American, but if someone asks about my lineage I say Irish German Dutch Austrian, nut even that's not completely accurate because supposedly I have a littl Native American and who knows what else.

Another reason you may see people express their ethnicity is if it's easy to identify - My last name is decidedly Irish, therefore that's the first thing I will say and people will think, even though I have more German-Austrian blood in me.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ethnicity....

huge subject.
Can't be bothered unless I'll talk about the Balkans.

Ethnicity, be that real or imaginery, is what defines nations in the Balkans and other parts of the world.

Actually I'm gonna start a purification of the engliosh language.
That's right. I'll never say "Balkans" again. It's a turkish term.

I'll say Southeast Europe


There. Ethnicity at work

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW I believe that ethnicity should be OUTPASSED (become obselete).

Unfortunately this is not the case in the US ot the rest of the world.

But things are moving slowly forward.
Let's keep it moving forward I say.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Serb

Hi Sava,
I'm glad to see you too.
Still dreaming about for WW3?

Hey Serb, yup... still dreaming about WW3. I figure, I can complete Nostradamus's prophecy and be the third anti-christ. Although I don't know about the blue turban thingy. I'm not big on hats.

I think the majority of racial tensions in the US are created by people who try to be too PC (politically correct), or people who get mad when people aren't PC. There are a lot of people (like me) who don't care about your skin color, religion, ethnicity, color of your hair, etc... but there are lots of people who tend to create racism when it isn't there. For instance, a black guy in my Economics class got into an argument with the teacher. The argument degenerated to the point where they were yelling at each other. Then the black guy said, "You think I'm just a stupid n!gga... what do I know?"... That's a perfect example of creating racism where it doesn't exist.

[DaShi]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Sikander


Hey, you were the one that wanted to know how many. It's an important question too, because it shows how widespread a problem is. The Americans of Japanese descent were rounded up and placed in concentration camps even though not one AFAIK was really a Japanese spy. As for the attacks on people thought to be Muslim or Arabs, it was a relatively small number of attacks which were widely publicized and condemned in order to prevent any more from happening. The U.S. is pretty good at handling it's ethnic tensions.

This it what I want to point at, you have this problem as well as any other countries.

Sure we have ethnic tensions, but show me a state with as many different ethnicities that works as well as ours does. We are not seething with racial tension and we are not about to come apart at the seams. I do agree with the point made above by Hoek, namely that dwelling on our ethnicity is the last thing we want the government to be supporting. It is counterproductive, and thankfully the worst of that is over, whether it's locking up Japanese, Jim Crow or supporting the continuing segregation of portions of society in dorms. Let people pick their friends, but give them a chance to make friends with people of other ethnicities. [/QUOTE]

13

[tandeetaylor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Sikander
As for the attacks on Arabs, without statistics we are both just pis$ing in the wind, and at the complete mercy of our media driven feelings.

Well, I don't know about that. If you know any Arabs then you may have witnessed it personally. My boss is Arab, and the sweetest old man in the world. He got threatening phone calls and mail. There was house in one of the wealthiest parts of town with graffiti all over go over it "Go home ****ing Arabs." Not to mention any restaurant or store that might be associated with Arabs, having an incredibly dramatic drop in business. (I know this from experience too because of a little Persian restaurant two doors down from my work) And maybe it's just because I'm a little sensitive to these things, but I seemed to hear "camel jockey" thrown around an awful lot in my job, where I deal with the dirty public. My boss tells people he's Greek or Italian most of the time now.

[Arrian]

tandeetaylor - that sucks. Some people are idiots.

Hoek,

I agree with you about colleges going overboard to highlight ethnic differences... it runs counter to the "melting pot" idea. I have no problem with people learning about and celebrating their origins. The problem, as I saw it when I was in college, is that the little societies that were created specially for various groups encourage those groups to remain insular. Various ethnic groups also began orientation one week prior to the rest of the students - which again struck me as a bad idea. I see the logic behind it, just like with the houses each group had, but I disagree with that logic.

My old college roomate is Jewish (and remains a close friend). At first, since the college was named "Trinity College" he didn't say anything about being Jewish. His friends back home had convinced him that if he openly declared his background, he would encounter vociferous anti-semitism. Well, suffice it to say that Trinity is neither a bastion of fundamentalist Christianity, nor anti-semitism. First off, we all pretty much guessed his origins before he finally told us, and none of us cared one bit. We were shocked at the stuff his friends had told him. Anyway, to make a long story short, he didn't spend all that much time with Hillel, and a lot of time with us - and I think we're all better for it. We "melted" a bit. Ahh, the wonders of being packed into a freshman dorm like sardines.

If you're amazed by your Tunisian Arab's identification with his ethnicty, then you would also have been amazed at how long it took me to convince my roomate that if I (or someone else) disagreed with a particular policy of the Israeli government (the democratically elected leadership of a sovereign nation) it didn't mean I was an anti-semite (a hater of a people based upon their ethnicity and/or religion). Likewise, calling a suicide bomber a murderer is probably the best way to get yourself labeled as a "zionist sympathizer" or somesuchthing in any number of Arab countries.

Bah, enough for now, I want lunch.

-Arrian, always thinkin' with his stomach.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Sava
I think the majority of racial tensions in the US are created by people who try to be too PC (politically correct), or people who get mad when people aren't PC.

That reminds me of the whites in the Southern US during the 60s when they claimed: "we never had no racial problems until these civil rights people started stirring up the pot. Before then the blacks knew their proper place."

[MrFun]

Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Hoek
Just to frame this discussion, let me first say that I am a white male American of 100% Dutch extraction.

Now, the other day I had a long discussion with a Tunisian Arab about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I kept asking him why it was that it seems like every Arab in the world thinks that Palestinians being killed is the most important problem the world has ever faced. Again and again, he tried to portray the Palestinian situation as unlike that any people in history have ever faced. In this discussion, I restrained myself from lashing out at his dangerously fierce ethnic identification. But it raised for me the question of why do people feel kinship based on believed biological connections. Why is it that people get so wrapped up in their ethnic identiy that they are willing to strap C-4 to themselves and kill children? The insanity of this conflict is based primarily on ethnic identification. As an American, I can have this perspective since American identiy is not ethnically based at all. In fact, the United States seems to be the only country founded on ideology, and where citizenship means adhering to an ideology as opposed to having some blood tie to other people in the country. Say what you like, Europeans and Asians and Russians, and everyone else, but what makes you weaker than the United States more than anything else is this ridiculous clinging to ethnicity as something to fight and die for. You will not find war between American Jews and American Arabs since they have nothing to fight over.

The unfortunate truth is also that the United States colleges are doing the exact opposite of what they should be. Colleges seem to encourage ethnic identification as an important part of student life, which can only further divide people. Spend a day at a college campus, and you will see all the blacks hanging out together, all the hillel kids hanging out together, all the FOB's from Asia hanging out together, all the wealthy Arabs hanging out together. It's dangerous, and it's bad for the country. Plurality does not mean everyone sits in their own clique and tries to get their piece of the pie, it means mixing and welding of peoples and cultures. Ethnic identification needs to stop.

I have read some of the good posts in here, and they are interesting.

I disagree with the issue between conformity and diversity. Some of you seem to be going to the extreme in saying that we cannot have ANY diversity between people --- we all need to become culturally monolithic to create a true melting pot society.

I find the concept of the melting pot repugnant. We can balance moderate conformity with moderate advocacy for diversity.

[chequita guevara]

I'm an ethnic MidWestern American.

[Natan]

Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Hoek
Now, the other day I had a long discussion with a Tunisian Arab about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I kept asking him why it was that it seems like every Arab in the world thinks that Palestinians being killed is the most important problem the world has ever faced. Again and again, he tried to portray the Palestinian situation as unlike that any people in history have ever faced. In this discussion, I restrained myself from lashing out at his dangerously fierce ethnic identification. But it raised for me the question of why do people feel kinship based on believed biological connections.

I don't think ethnicity is percieved by most people as a biological thing anymore.

Why is it that people get so wrapped up in their ethnic identiy that they are willing to strap C-4 to themselves and kill children? The insanity of this conflict is based primarily on ethnic identification.

There are a lot of different ways for people to identify themselves. Some people identify themselves politically (Republican/Democrat, Marxist/Libertarian, or what have you), others do so economically ("working class" and so on) and still others do so ethnically. I think that our lack of very strong ethnic ties in America is only part of the general nature of American society. Economic and political ties are also weak in this country. There are few killings on the basis of ethnicity, sure, but there are also few on the basis of politics. A country can be just as messed up by the former as the latter.

As an American, I can have this perspective since American identiy is not ethnically based at all. In fact, the United States seems to be the only country founded on ideology, and where citizenship means adhering to an ideology as opposed to having some blood tie to other people in the country. Say what you like, Europeans and Asians and Russians, and everyone else, but what makes you weaker than the United States more than anything else is this ridiculous clinging to ethnicity as something to fight and die for. You will not find war between American Jews and American Arabs since they have nothing to fight over.

In fairness, ethnic loyalties often make a lot of sense. To take a simplified case, if your boat crashes on the rocks and you're trying to convince someone to let you hold on to their little piece of the floating wreckage, what would you say, what common bond would you use to win them over? "Please, I'm a fellow Republican?" Would you say "I also earn 40-60 thousand dollars a year like you do?" Mabye "I'm also a Mets fan?" I think "I'm Irish/Arab/Jewish/Polish/Welsh/whatever too" is your best bet. Ethnic ties are strong.

The unfortunate truth is also that the United States colleges are doing the exact opposite of what they should be. Colleges seem to encourage ethnic identification as an important part of student life, which can only further divide people. Spend a day at a college campus, and you will see all the blacks hanging out together, all the hillel kids hanging out together, all the FOB's from Asia hanging out together, all the wealthy Arabs hanging out together. It's dangerous, and it's bad for the country. Plurality does not mean everyone sits in their own clique and tries to get their piece of the pie, it means mixing and welding of peoples and cultures. Ethnic identification needs to stop.

While I agree to a certain extent, let me make two points:
1) There are often reasons why people do that. Racial and ethnic tensions in our society cause people to band together like that as much as the banding together creates the tensions, if not more so.
2) I think you overestimate the extent of this "clique" behavior. I know at least at Cornell, even people who live in a special ethnic house (Center for Jewish Living, Latino house, Ujama African American house, etc.) generally mix quite a bit with people of other ethnicities. I think it is extremely difficult to live in most parts of this country for any length of time without interacting with people of many different ethnicities in many different settings.