Ethnicity

[Hoek]

Just to frame this discussion, let me first say that I am a white male American of 100% Dutch extraction.

Now, the other day I had a long discussion with a Tunisian Arab about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I kept asking him why it was that it seems like every Arab in the world thinks that Palestinians being killed is the most important problem the world has ever faced. Again and again, he tried to portray the Palestinian situation as unlike that any people in history have ever faced. In this discussion, I restrained myself from lashing out at his dangerously fierce ethnic identification. But it raised for me the question of why do people feel kinship based on believed biological connections. Why is it that people get so wrapped up in their ethnic identiy that they are willing to strap C-4 to themselves and kill children? The insanity of this conflict is based primarily on ethnic identification. As an American, I can have this perspective since American identiy is not ethnically based at all. In fact, the United States seems to be the only country founded on ideology, and where citizenship means adhering to an ideology as opposed to having some blood tie to other people in the country. Say what you like, Europeans and Asians and Russians, and everyone else, but what makes you weaker than the United States more than anything else is this ridiculous clinging to ethnicity as something to fight and die for. You will not find war between American Jews and American Arabs since they have nothing to fight over.

The unfortunate truth is also that the United States colleges are doing the exact opposite of what they should be. Colleges seem to encourage ethnic identification as an important part of student life, which can only further divide people. Spend a day at a college campus, and you will see all the blacks hanging out together, all the hillel kids hanging out together, all the FOB's from Asia hanging out together, all the wealthy Arabs hanging out together. It's dangerous, and it's bad for the country. Plurality does not mean everyone sits in their own clique and tries to get their piece of the pie, it means mixing and welding of peoples and cultures. Ethnic identification needs to stop.

[Dis]

like a melting pot?

[Skanky Burns]

In fact, the United States seems to be the only country founded on ideology, and where citizenship means adhering to an ideology as opposed to having some blood tie to other people in the country.

Australia?

[GeneralTacticus]

Australia?

We have a national ideology?? I've never noticed one .

[Imran Siddiqui]

We have a national ideology??

Yes, you are all English criminals, which basically means you don't want to be told what to do by any one .

[Serb]

Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Hoek
You will not find war between American Jews and American Arabs since they have nothing to fight over.

Really?
How many American Arabs were beaten or even slain after Sept 11?
How many Americans with Japanese roots were departated after Pearl Harbor?


May be they have nothing to fight over, but they might still hate each other, only because they represent different nationalities.

[Skanky Burns]

Nah, our national ideology is basically to not give a flying **** about other peoples nationalities.

[The Viceroy]

The question is a good one, even if some of the points about the US are a little ignorant..

We have a similar situation here in the UK, what does it mean to be English ?? Scots ok , Welsh yes .. but English ?? not sure .. Im from Viking decent .. many English people are from Celtic, Roman, AngloSaxon, Indian, African and more recently every different ethnic group of people's from all over the world.

I think its important to note, the US doesn't have the history that the middle east does, infact, not many places on earth do .. History breeds strong cultures, and religion is merely a part of that culture.

Why people feel the need to make so much out of it ?? well, when you have nothing other than it, to take it away, removes the reason to exist for many .. Its all very well in our nice rich countries to wonder why somebody would kill themselves for there culture .. its really not possible for us to see what it means to a person, who has nothing else..

Does it make it right ? NOPE .. its daft .. but were talking about 1 or 2 people out of the billions of humans on this planet, who have little but there belifs and traditions to comfort them in this life .. maybe thats quite a miracle indeed.

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yes, you are all English criminals, which basically means you don't want to be told what to do by any one .

Not all of us. In fact, a lot of us descended from free settlers (particularly during the gold rush era in the 19th century) and after WWII, a lot of Polish people came here to flee from the Soviets. I am of Danish, Irish, Spanish and German background. Maybe my Irish ancestors were criminals of the British empire, but the rest of them sure as hell were free settlers.

Our country was established by convicts, but it was the free settlers that turned our country into what it is. A bunch of thugs in chains isn't enough to make this kind of country.

[Tingkai]

Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Hoek
Why is it that people get so wrapped up in their ethnic identiy that they are willing to strap C-4 to themselves and kill children?

And how is this any different from wrapping yourself in your nation's flag and going out and bombing children? There's no difference. It is fairly easy to get people to fight for their country. Americans do it as much as anyone else.

Originally posted by Hoek
In fact, the United States seems to be the only country founded on ideology, and where citizenship means adhering to an ideology as opposed to having some blood tie to other people in the country.

The same can be said of many countries around the world: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Central and South American countries.

And even then the statement is false. Citizenship for the majority of people in these countries is defined by the fact they were born there, not because of their ideology.

Originally posted by Hoek
The unfortunate truth is also that the United States colleges are doing the exact opposite of what they should be. Colleges seem to encourage ethnic identification as an important part of student life, which can only further divide people.

Sure, the cliques are soley created by the colleges. These cliques never occur off campus.

Originally posted by Hoek
Spend a day at a college campus, and you will see all the blacks hanging out together, all the hillel kids hanging out together, all the FOB's from Asia hanging out together, all the wealthy Arabs hanging out together. It's dangerous, and it's bad for the country. Plurality does not mean everyone sits in their own clique and tries to get their piece of the pie, it means mixing and welding of peoples and cultures. Ethnic identification needs to stop.

It is part of human nature to hang around with people who share your interests and who can relate to you. In Hong Kong, most of my friends are Canadian, not because I limit my connects to Canadians, but because most non-Canadians would be bored out of their mind by our NHL talk, just like I'm bored when a bunch of Brits start talking about football.

At the same time, some of my friends are not Canadian have a shared interest in hockey.
(Not that my life revolves soley around hockey. This is just an example.)

These cliques have existed in North American life ever since the first immigrants arrived there. The divisions are not going to go away and it is not that serious these days.

What you want is impossible.

In the end, if you ask any of those people how they define themselves, they would likely all say American with some adding a modifier (i.e. Chinese-American with Chinese modifying the noun American).

[Sikander]

Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Serb

Really?
How many American Arabs were beaten or even slain after Sept 11?

Less than one for every 100 people killed on 9/11.

Originally posted by Serb
How many Americans with Japanese roots were departated after Pearl Harbor?

Less than one for every ten Soviet citizens deported to Siberia for their ethnicity during WWII.

Originally posted by Serb
May be they have nothing to fight over, but they might still hate each other, only because they represent different nationalities.

Not really. The only cases where there tends to be any enmity of note is between 1st generation Americans (ie, people born in other countries who recently immigrated to the U.S.). There are ethnic tensions in the U.S. to be sure, but they don't have anything to do with 'the old country'.

[Serb]

Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Sikander
Less than one for every 100 people killed on 9/11.
Less than one for every ten Soviet citizens deported to Siberia for their ethnicity during WWII.

It doesn't matter how many was, all of them was not guilty in what happen at Sept 11 or Pearl Harbor. All those people were inocent, but they suffer only because they were the same nationality as the "external enemy".

There are ethnic tensions in the U.S. to be sure,

This it what I want to point at, you have this problem as well as any other countries.

[Sikander]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Serb

It doesn't matter how many was, all of them was not guilty in what happen at Sept 11 or Pearl Harbor. All those people were inocent, but they suffer only because they were the same nationality as the "external enemy".

Hey, you were the one that wanted to know how many. It's an important question too, because it shows how widespread a problem is. The Americans of Japanese descent were rounded up and placed in concentration camps even though not one AFAIK was really a Japanese spy. As for the attacks on people thought to be Muslim or Arabs, it was a relatively small number of attacks which were widely publicized and condemned in order to prevent any more from happening. The U.S. is pretty good at handling it's ethnic tensions.

This it what I want to point at, you have this problem as well as any other countries. [/QUOTE]

Sure we have ethnic tensions, but show me a state with as many different ethnicities that works as well as ours does. We are not seething with racial tension and we are not about to come apart at the seams. I do agree with the point made above by Hoek, namely that dwelling on our ethnicity is the last thing we want the government to be supporting. It is counterproductive, and thankfully the worst of that is over, whether it's locking up Japanese, Jim Crow or supporting the continuing segregation of portions of society in dorms. Let people pick their friends, but give them a chance to make friends with people of other ethnicities.

[Serb]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Sikander
Hey, you were the one that wanted to know how many. It's an important question too, because it shows how widespread a problem is.

I just can't understand how you can determinate how widespread a problem is, by comapre numbers of victims of anti-Arab incedents with victims of Sept 11.

I do agree with the point made above by Hoek, namely that dwelling on our ethnicity is the last thing we want the government to be supporting. I

This is the last thing a government of every country should do.

Sure we have ethnic tensions, but show me a state with as many different ethnicities that works as well as ours does.

It can be explained. USA is the wealthiest country in the world. The poorer the country, the more ethnic tensions it have, but if something realy bad happen at even such wealth country as USA, people forget about their fine ideals and principles and start to hate and blame their coutrymens for what happen, only because they are descenders from different country.

[Sikander]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ethnicity

Originally posted by Serb

It can be explained. USA is the wealthiest country in the world. The poorer the country, the more ethnic tensions it have, but if something realy bad happen at even such wealth country as USA, people forget about their fine ideals and principles and start to hate and blame their coutrymens for what happen, only because they are descenders from different country.

Well I suppose this is true in Europe when there are Jews around to blame. Most Americans don't identify themselves ethnically and therefore aren't as open to the sort of paranoia / hate you are talking about. I agree that negative events exert a negative influence on any culture most of the time, but my guess is that we will see another Hutu / Tutsi massacre before we see anything like that in the U.S.