Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Race differences

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns


    God, you guys are so stupid it hurts!!!

    What is the relevance of such a test?

    Why don't we try and make a comparative mapping of brains of

    ... Manchester Fans and Liverpool Fans

    ... Vegetarians against Meat Eaters

    ... Democrats and Republicans

    ... Racists and Non-Racists

    ...

    Can't you see all those tests are likelly to give different results?

    Do you know why?

    BECAUSE WE ARE ALL DIFERENT, THAT'S WHY.

    It will be a damn lucky shot if any of these tests does not give even a slight diference!!!

    And then?

    Are we saying that some are more inteligent than the others?


    We don't even fully know how the brain works and you pretend to draw conclusions on the mapping of it? And specifically concerning such a puny thing as the colour of one's skin?

    And you don't like to be called RACIST? To bad, for that's exactly what you are!

    wow the ignorance you display is amazing. You call me a rascist for even ASKING a scientific question. I never said anyone is better or smarter than anyone else. have we become so PC that it is off limits to even raise the question as to whether race MAY matter??

    The relevance of such studies is scientific understanding of how the brain works. You should read my posts, I specifically drew NO CONCLUSIONS. I merely pointed out that race COULD be a factor in some trends and that I was unaware of studies that prove conclusively that it is NOT a factor

    All I am saying is that genetic differences that might make a difference in one area (systemically and on average) could make differences in another area. I know that individual variances will be large since individual characterictics would swing wildly around any group mean but perhaps race X is more inclined to certain types of reasoning (logical, spatial, intuitive) while race Y is inclined to others. Is knowledge for the sake of knowledge that dangerous to you ?

    I daresay that scientists would be interested in any systemic differences between vegetarians and meateaters. Perhaps diet can impact brain function in a systematic way ?? Some probably think this. Also studies of people in different regions could be interesting, in particular if we include regions of higher pollution and exposure to toxins. The effects of some of these pollutants are barely understood. As for sports fans, there are certain ones that SHOULD be studied to understand how they can maintain the delusion that " this is the year" for their team to win it all after decades of futility .


    It is self evident to say we are all different. What a concept !!!! But if I tested boys and girls on height, weight aqnd body fat percentage, we would find that they are all different. However after sufficient testing of a large enough sample we could conclude that boys on average are taller, heavier and have lower body fat. This in no way precludes a girl from being any of the heaviest, tallest or leanest and there would definitely be girls who are taller, heavier and leaner than a majority of boys. The fact of individual variance does not eliminate a trend identifiable on a given variable. (I am stating self-evident stuff back at you since you do not seem to understand that groups can have trends evn though members vary widely)


    Why do these questions scare you so much ? I present a balanced outlook that comments that racial variance we see is likely due to socioeconomic factors and outright racial discrimination but that there does not seem to be enough science to disprove the idea that the genetics of race may matter. So I wonder if it could and does matter. Your response is the highly persuasive " You are a racist if you mention race".


    If you want to talk at me, stop stating the self evident and provide a link to a series of reputable studies that show that race is irrelevant to how brains function. It is probably the case that race IS irrelevant but as far as I know, the brain is so little understood that scientists just don't know yet. So getting on your pedestal is just politically correct crap supported by nothing.
    You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GP
      2. It may be offensive but is it untrue?
      RACISM!!! RAAAAACISM!!! OHHH YOURE SOOOO RACIST!!!

      I cant believe what a BIGOT you are!!! OH, you must REALLY HATE black people!!! Ohh youre such a RACIST!!!

      RACISM!!! RACISM!!!


      ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
      ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

      Comment


      • Once again, it has to be said...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gibsie
          Once again, it has to be said...
          If you dont like it, bugger off.
          ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
          ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

          Comment


          • Moderators!!!!! HEEEELP!!! There are EVIL RACIST LURKING EVERYWHERE!!!!

            I say BAN them. Because we can't out-argue them. Better, BURN THEM AT THE STAKE! And prove that we, good anti-racists, are the TRUE BELIEVERS.

            Comment


            • Lol, I like the fact that Cal is more offended at being told the thread sucks (let's face it, it does ) than being called a dirty racist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Flubber
                I have also seen articles talking about different numbers of "fast-twitch" and " slow twitch" muscle fibres in black versus white people as an explainantion why more black people excell in sprints and more whites in endurance events. I neither accept nor reject these claims at the moment, but if true, they appear to indicate body differences.
                This is old, old drivel from the days when there were few blacks involved in endurance sports. If you keep up with marathons you will notice the results are often:

                1. Ethiopia
                2. Ethiopia
                3. Ethiopia
                or
                1. Kenya
                2. Kenya
                3. Kenya
                or some combination thereof.

                East Africans have performed better in marathons than Europeans and other Africans. Which brings us back to the point that there is more variation within the mythological "races" than there is between them. This is why trying to describe race differences is foolhearty. There are detailed, localized factors that effect human development - as we saw with the rice-eating Asians versus the westernized Hong Kongers.

                If you want to take on other endurance events like swimming or cross-country skiing, the lack of black performance is easily explained. There aren't many pools in Africa or in American ghettoes. Blacks have traditionally been sparse in these events just as they were in marathons untill a few decades ago.
                Last edited by Carver; April 12, 2002, 10:54.

                Comment


                • So I am not to derive from your statements that you have a racist bias...

                  OK.

                  Then please answer me this:

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  The relevance of such studies is scientific understanding of how the brain works.
                  In what way do you thing having samples being drawn from subjects according to their "race" may help in understanding the way the brain works?

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  You should read my posts, I specifically drew NO CONCLUSIONS. I merely pointed out that race COULD be a factor in some trends and that I was unaware of studies that prove conclusively that it is NOT a factor
                  Wasn't the Human Genome Project results enough for you?
                  Why?

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  All I am saying is that genetic differences that might make a difference in one area (systemically and on average) could make differences in another area. I know that individual variances will be large since individual characterictics would swing wildly around any group mean but perhaps race X is more inclined to certain types of reasoning (logical, spatial, intuitive) while race Y is inclined to others. Is knowledge for the sake of knowledge that dangerous to you ?
                  Again, weren't the results of the Human Genome Project, stating that there is no indentifiable genetic trace that can allow the identification of more than one sigle human race (that being the all human species) enough? Why?

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  I daresay that scientists would be interested in any systemic differences between vegetarians and meateaters. Perhaps diet can impact brain function in a systematic way ?? Some probably think this. Also studies of people in different regions could be interesting, in particular if we include regions of higher pollution and exposure to toxins. The effects of some of these pollutants are barely understood. As for sports fans, there are certain ones that SHOULD be studied to understand how they can maintain the delusion that " this is the year" for their team to win it all after decades of futility .
                  In this point we almost seem to agree with each other.
                  My point, however, was that it is just as futile to do the study you proposed based on differences in the colour of one's skin as it is by comparing the fans ogf two different football teams.

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  It is self evident to say we are all different. What a concept !!!! But if I tested boys and girls on height, weight aqnd body fat percentage, we would find that they are all different. However after sufficient testing of a large enough sample we could conclude that boys on average are taller, heavier and have lower body fat. This in no way precludes a girl from being any of the heaviest, tallest or leanest and there would definitely be girls who are taller, heavier and leaner than a majority of boys. The fact of individual variance does not eliminate a trend identifiable on a given variable. (I am stating self-evident stuff back at you since you do not seem to understand that groups can have trends evn though members vary widely)
                  The diferences between men and women are far more notorious and do go to the genetic level. Therefore, there is no possible comparison.
                  However, even these studies can give you the wrong conclusions: particularly those that compared inteligence levels.
                  And, again, in many cases, the mean does not mean a thing. How are you sure this isn't such a case.

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  Why do these questions scare you so much ? I present a balanced outlook that comments that racial variance we see is likely due to socioeconomic factors and outright racial discrimination but that there does not seem to be enough science to disprove the idea that the genetics of race may matter. So I wonder if it could and does matter. Your response is the highly persuasive " You are a racist if you mention race".
                  My response is a bit different:
                  - You are a racist if you mention there are genetic diferences between human beings that conform to the definition of race, particularly if no scientific evidence supports your belief.
                  This is my definition of racist.
                  Do you think this definition is wrong?
                  Do you think you conform with such a definition?

                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  If you want to talk at me, stop stating the self evident and provide a link to a series of reputable studies that show that race is irrelevant to how brains function. It is probably the case that race IS irrelevant but as far as I know, the brain is so little understood that scientists just don't know yet. So getting on your pedestal is just politically correct crap supported by nothing.
                  I would ask you first you to show me any irrefutable scientific reference on the existence of such a thing as diferent human races (the scientific definition of it, of course).
                  Otherwise, I can't see why the scientific community would loose time investigating the relevance of some inexistent thing on the function of anything.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WFHermans
                    Moderators!!!!! HEEEELP!!! There are EVIL RACIST LURKING EVERYWHERE!!!!

                    I say BAN them. Because we can't out-argue them. Better, BURN THEM AT THE STAKE! And prove that we, good anti-racists, are the TRUE BELIEVERS.

                    Moderators!!!! HELP!!!! There are PC communist fanatics on the board trying to eliminate my 1st amendment rights. I can say whatever I want but if the leftists attack me they are trying to take away free speech! You need to remind them that free speech is only for conservatives!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tingkai
                      To anyone. The questions I posted above.
                      Your last few posts had no questions. (statements). What is your question? (Don't get mad...its an honest question...)

                      Comment


                      • Doh!!! Ok I do you the courtesy of taking your questions seriously...you do me the courtesy of thinking through the answers.


                        1. Would you agree that your own race contains a wide diversity of people with a wide diversity of mental and physical abilities?

                        Sure as do all races.

                        2. If you do, do you accept the fact that other races have the same diversity?

                        From casual observation, all have wide diversity. Not sure if the exact variance is the same. But reasonably wide for all.

                        3. If race is so important, then wouldn't these people fit into a narrow band of similarities?

                        I don't think race is "so important". I wish we had race-neutral policies in government, hiring, and personal relations.

                        But your question is interesting for its own sake. Let's think about it. Are categories meaningful only if they have narrow bands of similarity? I mean there are a wide variety of Breyer's and Haagan Daaz ice creams. But I still think the two categories are useful.



                        4. Think of the last school you went to and all the people of your own race. What physical and mental similarities did the people of your race share other than skin colour?

                        buncha he-men babykillers.

                        5. Would you agree that European nations, historically and today, have significant differences in academic achievement, crime rates and economic success? If race is so important than how can this be?

                        I don't think looking at country performance is the best way to evaluate individual capabilities. But let me "go with the flow" and "play along" with the intent of your question: I think the problem you are having is "how can two categories have significant differences if there is a lot of variance in each category". This is actually a pretty simple stats question. Boddington answered it with the comment about two normal curves with different means. Let me give you a simple example. Let's say that the average time to engine failure for a Toyota is 10 years and for a Fiat is 5 years (made up numbers, spare me the Italian outrage). Does that mean that every Fiat fails at exactly 5 years and every Toyota at exactly 10 years? NO!! There is a wide variance for each. Does the wide variance remove the statistical advantage of having a Toyota? NO!! The average difference remains.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Carver


                          This is old, old drivel from the days when there were few blacks involved in endurance sports. If you keep up with marathons you will notice the results are often:

                          1. Ethiopia
                          2. Ethiopia
                          3. Ethiopia
                          or
                          1. Kenya
                          2. Kenya
                          3. Kenya
                          or some combination thereof.
                          Apparently there are large physical differences between East Africans and West Africans. This just shows that ethnic groupings, races families, clans whatever, can have significant differences from each other.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gibsie
                            Lol, I like the fact that Cal is more offended at being told the thread sucks (let's face it, it does ) than being called a dirty racist
                            Well...the truth hurts more...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Caligastia


                              RACISM!!! RAAAAACISM!!! OHHH YOURE SOOOO RACIST!!!

                              I cant believe what a BIGOT you are!!! OH, you must REALLY HATE black people!!! Ohh youre such a RACIST!!!

                              RACISM!!! RACISM!!!


                              Ooops. I'll go hide in the corner.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns


                                In what way do you thing having samples being drawn from subjects according to their "race" may help in understanding the way the brain works?
                                In what way would examing conductivity in different metals help us understand electrical conductivity in general. As a scientist, having different samples with different performance makes it easier to understand function in general. This is how medical research in general is often done.


                                Wasn't the Human Genome Project results enough for you?
                                Why?
                                No. I don't think that the HGP has identified the genes that effect intelligence and how and then correlated these genes by racial group. If they have, please point me to the results.


                                Again, weren't the results of the Human Genome Project, stating that there is no indentifiable genetic trace that can allow the identification of more than one sigle human race (that being the all human species) enough? Why?
                                No for the reasoning above. Also, I wasn't aware that DNA could not be used to distinguish Africans, Europeans, etc. Is that true? Mitochondiral DNA certainly can be used this way. I'd lilke to see some source that says nuclear DNA can't be used to resolve the difference between a European and an African. I bet if I give two unmarked samples to a crime lab, they can use DNA testing to determine race. (I'm guessing here...but since you are certain...please rpovide the source.)


                                The diferences between men and women are far more notorious and do go to the genetic level. Therefore, there is no possible comparison.
                                However, even these studies can give you the wrong conclusions: particularly those that compared inteligence levels.
                                And, again, in many cases, the mean does not mean a thing. How are you sure this isn't such a case.
                                You ignored the main point of his example: you can have wide variance within categories and still have statistically meaningful differences between the categories. This is basic math. Think it through.

                                I would ask you first you to show me any irrefutable scientific reference on the existence of such a thing as diferent human races (the scientific definition of it, of course).
                                Otherwise, I can't see why the scientific community would loose time investigating the relevance of some inexistent thing on the function of anything.
                                You don't understand how categorizations work. One doesn't have to prove race "exists". One merely has to have some definition for it, than one can examine how other variables correlate to it. Maybe the results are intersting, maybe not. If other interesting variables correlate to it, then the categorization is interesting itself. This is how the elements were identified. (Not first based on microcopic understanding...but first based on apperent effects.)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X