Chrisitianities great crimes

[MrFun]

DinoDoc has reinforced my own arguments.

You mean to tell me that you agree with me, DinoDoc??

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
You mean to tell me that you agree with me, DinoDoc??

Maybe.

[MrFun]

Ok, then this strange phenomena of you and I agreeing on something just goes to show that Apolyton is becoming an even weirder place.

[tandeetaylor]

Re: Re: Chrisitianity's great crimes

Originally posted by BeBro


I think these things were primarily done by humans. Or do we blame any atheist for Stalin?

Good point, but we (at least I do, anyway) also blame the philosophy of the person. Why do people do what they do? If religion is a means of changing peoples lives, do we ignore the bad changes its made to some (a lot) of people's lives? Or do we judge a tree for only half it's fruit? Or in this case, about 1/10 ( or less )

[Dry]

The crimes of the Church

For me christianity - religions more generaly - is only a tool used by rulers to achieve their goals (good or evil).
If you look at the list, you will notice that all those 'crimes' have political or economical reasons. The 'holy' here was just a way to convince gullible people that they were right, they did something 'good'.

But you may extend this to other values than religion. Communism. Communists today, will say the same thing as christians about the fact that True communism was twisted by Stalin or True communism has nothing to do with Stalinism
The enthousiasm of the 'true' communists was used to commit bad things.

This being said, the biggest crime could be then the institution of the church itself (be it catholic, orthodox or whatever). To make this tool official, was the most machiavelical act. It provided the ultimate tool for rulers (Therefore I prefer the protestants or the Jews: they have not the institution).

The french revolution understood that very well and in their will of 'freeing' people, they introduce the idea of secular government.
And btw: this is why many Europeans, which are under the influence of this french revolution spirit, dislike when the US use sentences as 'God bless America' or 'So help me God', because it sounds like a reference to religion or beliefs in a political context.

But you may also extend this abuse of beliefs or values until today.
We could make another poll:
Democracy's greatest crime?

US dropped Napalm on vietnamese villages in the name of democracy and freedom.
We went to Iraqi/koweit in the name of democracy.
Democracy? We attacked the only secular (see above) government of the region in order to 'free' a monarchical/religious country.
We went there to prevent Irak to become the great power of the region, but this could not be said like that, people wouldn't follow, so we found some good, nice, democratic, 'holy' reason for the crusade. And public opinion agreed.
In the name of Democracy and War against Terrorism, Israel is now reducing a people to a status like the american natives (just imagine 5 seconds that Spain (France, UK...) does the same with the Basques independentists (Corsican, IRA,..): reduce the house of the family of terrorists to rubble, forbid ALL basques to travel as long as 1 terrorist remains and allow 'true' spanish to build villages in Basqueland under the protection of the army. Man, in less than 2 days they have hundreds of kills in Madrid. They could then say Those basques are indeed born-terrorists, it is in their culture, Spain has to protect their citizen, get rid of the basques).

And some of you are surprised that some people hate our freedom or democracy?
None of us may say that freedom or democracy is 'bad', but if you see what happened to them or their family 'in the name of freedom or democracy'...
If some of us 'hate' christianity for what was done in the name of it, then it is logical to understand that one may 'hate' freedom for what was done in the name of it.

But, back to the topic:
Wouldn't it be more accurate to speak about the crimes of the Church (institution), instead of Christianity.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Guynemer


My my my. You are one ignorant, spiteful, hateful little man, aren't you?

No, I just state my opinion based on my observations. Have you even read the Qur'an? I have. And Communism, well I don't have to argue anything supporting what I said. The proof is in the former Soviet Union and present day China.

You've got to understand that I'm not talking about ALL Islam... just the majority of it. Of course there are some sects of positive Islam.

But unfortunately, I can't be here to explain the world's religions to you. My suggestion, go to school and learn about things, then call me ignorant when you know what you are talking about; because you obviously don't

[laurentius]

Increadibly stupid poll btw

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Sava


No, I just state my opinion based on my observations. Have you even read the Qur'an? I have. And Communism, well I don't have to argue anything supporting what I said. The proof is in the former Soviet Union and present day China.

You've got to understand that I'm not talking about ALL Islam... just the majority of it. Of course there are some sects of positive Islam.

But unfortunately, I can't be here to explain the world's religions to you. My suggestion, go to school and learn about things, then call me ignorant when you know what you are talking about; because you obviously don't

Whatever you say, kiddo. EDIT: Ooops, sorry DD, I quoted him again!

[Guynemer]

tp!

[Guynemer]

dp

[Ecowiz Returns]

Having read most of the posts I have to agree with a first point:

The name of the thread is plain wrong.

That being said, I voted in the banana option for I don't blame Christianity for any of those crimes.

In most cases I don't agree with them because they are much more the result of other contemporay factors than the result of what is said to be, according to the Bible, Jesus' teachings (or the Apostles' for that matter). In fact, as it was pointed out by others here, most (if not all) of the (real) crimes are said to be crimes according to Christian doctrine itself.

However, I do agree with Dry when he points out that, by becoming official religion of the State, Christianism ended up being used for political purposes, allowing many unlawfull intentions to be diguised under his name. I didn't understood, however in what way was Judaism different or many Protestant religions. For instance, I recall that Christ was first trialed and sentenced in the Sinedrium (Jewish religious court); and that the Anglican (I believe the Luteran too) were the State's religions.

I also would like to point that past mistakes should teach us, other than be used to provide some notion of moral superiority over others. In that sense, it would be fruitfull if we were to analyse what are the banners of today's atrocities.

[Dr Strangelove]

Uhhhh...... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marx advocate killing certain people, i.e., particularily those of the bourgeiose persuasion? Wasn't Stalin just being fatihful to the dictates of Marx when he brutally subdued ( even to the point of death ) those who offered the slightest resistance to or reservations about the party's programs?

Has Christianity had an overall negative effect on human history? Go take a closer look at Roman and Viking cultures during the first millenium of the common era and tell me that you would like to be living in a world dominated by either one of those cultures. There have been numerous instances of brutality by those who profess Christian faith throughout the ages, but that also goes for just about any other faith and includes those groups which proclaimed an absence of faith as well. In the end Christians set whatever international standard that exists today for justice and compassion.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
The name of the thread is plain wrong.

The name of the thread was a typo, and I asked the mods, very early in the thread, to edit it. They have not done so, and I am powerless to change it myself. Unfortunate, because it seems everyone is stuck on the title of the thread, and not the point of the thread.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Uhhhh...... correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marx advocate killing certain people, i.e., particularily those of the bourgeiose persuasion?

No, you are incorrect. Marx doesn't call for killing anyone, except during war, where it is unavoidable.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MrFun
Your Point #2:

The Romans decided to act on the demands of some of the Jewish leaders in having Jesus executed. The Jewish leaders who hated Jesus saw him as a threat to their established religion.

According to the Christians, who were trying to demonize the Jews and suck up to the Romans. It is unsubstantiated that Pilot was acting according to the wishes of the Jewish priests and not according to his own interests in squashing all dissent.