"Natural rights"?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Kant says if you can make a statement and imagine that everyone believed it, if it was consistent then it would be moral, correct?

Yup.

So if a neo-nazi in theory believed that killing people was wrong except Jews, could that be universalized? And if the definition of "people" changed depending on who you asked would this exercise need to use the neo-nazi's definition? How would this work?

That's why Habermas is an improvement upon Kant. Kant believes that we can come up with maxims in our own head, while Habermas says that this fails to take individual idiosyncrasies into account and that we must actually engage in moral argumentation in order to determine whose maxims are better. Using Habermas you wouldn't be able to arbitrary and/or idiosyncratically redefine your definitions.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by loinburger
Objective: Having actual existence or reality. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices.

Morals and rights can never pass this test then, since they only exist in our minds.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
So it all comes down to being able to convince another of your reasons. So doesn't this all come down to opinion then?

It comes down to opinion, and the fact that not all opinions are equal. Some justifications are more reasonable than others.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
First you say there are no absolute morals and then you say there are no relative morals... someone is being inconsistent.

Absolute and objective aren't the same thing.

That objective standard, btw... is a made up standard. I don't believe your communication/reciprocation argument one bit.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it would sure help me out if you could offer some justification for it. Otherwise it just sounds like hot air.

Btw, what is a good justification and a bad? Isn't that relative to what you say? There is no objective standard you can refer to .

An inconsistent and/or irrational justification is bad. An arbitrary justification is insufficient. For example, saying "I don't believe your argument" counts as an opinion, but it certainly doesn't count as a good justification for it.

[OzzyKP]

Well the Libertarian Party has just paid me 50 bucks to stuff 19 envelopes and argue against Natural Rights for a few hours. So I think its time I take off before I suck up too much money from the Party unnecessarily.

I may check in on this argument when I get home from work.

[Ramo]

Objective doesn't mean universal or absolute. It means that there's a way to judge whether somebody's morality is better or worse than somebody else's.

But you're saying that the method of judging morality is universal or absolute. What's the distinction?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by loinburger
It comes down to opinion, and the fact that not all opinions are equal. Some justifications are more reasonable than others.

Resonable to you. If a Nazi has scientific, historical, written evidence of the sub-humanity of Jews.... If a Southern plantation owner points to the horrible conditions in Africa and says black are sub-human. Why is there justification less reasonable thant that person who claims equality?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
What he is saying is that you are making no sense.

Then he should have said that I'm making no sense, and he should have pointed out where in my argument I'm not making sense.

Saying "You're not making sense because you're being inconsistent, look, here you say that there are no absolute morals and here you say that there are objective morals" is a pretty rotten justification, seeing as how "objective" and "absolute" are not the same ****ing word.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by loinburger


Then he should have said that I'm making no sense, and he should have pointed out where in my argument I'm not making sense.

Saying "You're not making sense because you're being inconsistent, look, here you say that there are no absolute morals and here you say that there are objective morals" is a pretty rotten justification, seeing as how "objective" and "absolute" are not the same ****ing word.

Well I and many others it seems did not understand the distinction between absolute and objective.

[Imran Siddiqui]

An inconsistent and/or irrational justification is bad.

The slave argument. Africa is a ****hole... the civilizations suck. Therefore Africans are inferior. Someone arguing with him says, I don't believe that justification.

So is the slave owner the moral one?

seeing as how "objective" and "absolute" are not the same ****ing word.

There is no such thing as objective morality. That is basically saying the same thing as relative morality.

There is only absolute or relative morality.. there can't be anything else.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Morals and rights can never pass this test then, since they only exist in our minds.

Not only that, but saying "Such and such is wicked" is an emotive response. We say that something is wicked because it invokes an emotion in us, and without that emotion the term would be unnecessary. Morals have a "reality" in the words we use to denote them, but I agree, there is no way that morality itself could exist without emotions.

However, our justifications could conceivably pass the second part of this test.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ramo
But you're saying that the method of judging morality is universal or absolute. What's the distinction?

The method wouldn't exist without communication, which is not universal or absolute. Only humans (as far as we know) communicate at the level necessary for objective morality to exist. If you don't have a word for "moral" then you don't have objective morality.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Resonable to you. If a Nazi has scientific, historical, written evidence of the sub-humanity of Jews.... If a Southern plantation owner points to the horrible conditions in Africa and says black are sub-human. Why is there justification less reasonable thant that person who claims equality?

Using the Southern plantation owner, when somebody else points to a Frederick Douglas and says "see, blacks have, at the very least, the potential for having the same level of intellectual and social development as whites," then the plantation owner would have to come up with a pretty damn good counterargument.

[Imran Siddiqui]

However, our justifications could conceivably pass the second part of this test.

WHY do justifications matter at all?

Someone slaughters their enemies, ripping them to shreads, saying they were plotting to overthrow the government. Someone says that is wrong.. just because it is.

Does that mean the slaughter is more moral because he has justification?

I don't think so.

The method wouldn't exist without communication, which is not universal or absolute. Only humans (as far as we know) communicate at the level necessary for objective morality to exist. If you don't have a word for "moral" then you don't have objective morality.

As was stated by Ozzy... you have to explain this objective morality more in depth. Because saying we communication, and therefore require justification in our arguments mean that justification is required for morality isn't a good system at all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by loinburger
Using the Southern plantation owner, when somebody else points to a Frederick Douglas and says "see, blacks have, at the very least, the potential for having the same level of intellectual and social development as whites," then the plantation owner would have to come up with a pretty damn good counterargument.

*points to Africa*

Look at the states (or lack of them) that exist. That proves that blacks can't run governments efficiently if put in charge, and thus are sub-human.

That is a pretty damn good counterargument, isn't it?

And what about before Douglass... say in the 1750s... then what is your argument?