"Natural rights"?

[Urban Ranger]

Libertarians are fond of throwing around this "natural rights" concept in a lot of political debates. It appears that this is one of their fundamental ideas.

The only problem is they do it without backing the concept with any sort of arguments, which makes it problematic to have any sort of political debates with libertarians.

So, is any one of them going to present a philosophical argument for this concept, particularly on why only humans have "natural rights?"

Remember, the US Constitution is not a basis for a philosophical argument.

[Thrawn05]

That reminds me how irratating it is for someone to throw the "Race Card" in any debate.

[Ecthy]

There's only one natural right, namely to serve the Kollektiv.

[Sava]

I believe that every person is free from any sort of control and they should be allowed to live their life accordingly. But... and this is a big but... by living in a society, you must choose to relinquish some freedoms to the greater good of society. My answer to people who claim "the government can't do this, blah blah" is... Move to the mountains and become a hermit if you wish to be free. Nobody will care to tell you what to do.

If you choose to live in a society, you must agree to the laws which that society has set. If you don't like the laws, you can either try to change them, accept them, or become a hermit.

I agree with some Libertarian views. Drugs should be legal, all of them. But there needs to be more education.

I disagree with Libertarian views on taxation. Libertarians believe that the government doesn't have the right to take their money. Without taxes, there would be no freedom because their would be no military to protect that freedom.

IMO, freedom from taxes and economic laws, is freedom for corporations to engage in dishonest practices and fleece America. There would be hundreds of Enron's a year without the government watchdog protecting Americans.

[Thrawn05]

I could care less what you (in general) or anyone wants to do, as long as they don't endanger the lives of anyone else.

The safty of society comes before ones personal pleasures IMHO.

[red_jon]

Why shouldn't we have natural rights?

Sava, as a social democrat (left-libertarian), I believe a decent education to be a right.

[Spec]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
There's only one natural right, namely to serve the Kollektiv.

Good one!

Spec.

[Sava]

Originally posted by red_jon
Why shouldn't we have natural rights?

Sava, as a social democrat (left-libertarian), I believe a decent education to be a right.

I didn't say we shouldn't have natural rights.

I said some rights need to be relinqueshed for the greater good. The right to murder, for one. The right to child porn is another that comes to mind.

I don't disagree with you on the education factor. But decent education costs money. And Libertarians scoff at the notion of tax supported pubic schools. The right to not be taxed is a big right that needs to be relinqueshed in order to improve society. That was my main point.

Again, as with any political party, Libertarians have good ideas, and bad ones. I agree with the Green Party more than any other party. I guess it boils down to the individual. I never vote for a party. But I often vote against a party. Mostly the republican party.

[Wraith]

--"The only problem is they do it without backing the concept with any sort of arguments,"

So we've been overestimating our opponent's education? And underestimating their willingness to dismiss a concept they don't understand? I see.

You can start by a quick web surf to get such things as an encyclopedia entry, which should lead you to John Locke's treatsy.

The idea isn't that complicated, based on ownership of self.

Wraith
--"The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously."

[MrFun]

Look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Those are the natural rights that humans have towards.

[Kropotkin]

I think that "natural" is a pretty bad word for rights since it would imply that these rights can be found in nature. What's natural, what's the result of society and what parts of natural should give us right? (For example; being unfaithful exists amoungst animals, is that a right then?). Thus (and for other reasons) I don't belive in natural rights and that rights are the result of a society.

But this doesn't mean that I'm strictly utilitarian. There's some rights that I do think are so essential for any society to work that they shouldn't be broken regardless of short time gains.

[Goingonit]

I'm sure that almost every single person disagrees with me on this issue, but I believe that a natural right is anythig that you could do were there no laws or society or restrictions of any kind. You have freedom of movement, religion, et cetera, BUT you also have "rights" which must be limited in order to create a viable society: "right" to kill people, for instance.

Animals have rights, therefore, but, in order to maintain a carnivorous and fur-wearing cociety, we choose to limit them.

[Inverse Icarus]

[OPINION]
there are no natural rights. human beings are a commidy, as are steel and woord. their lives are merely tools for the state to use as they see fit. they are not born with any right but the right to die. they can use that right on themselves any way they see fit.
[/OPINION]

[Rex Little]

I believe a decent education to be a right.

If you say that you have a right to education, or health care, or anything else that has to be provided by others, then you're saying that those others have an obligation to provide those things to you, whether they want to or not.

In other words, to the extent you need them to provide these things for you, other people are your slaves.

If you understand this, and still believe in a right to education, we can either debate further or agree to disagree. But let's be clear about what we mean.

I said some rights need to be relinqueshed for the greater good. The right to murder, for one.

Is there anyone who believes you have the right to murder? If you don't have it in the first place, it doesn't need to be relinquished.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by UberKruX
[OPINION]
there are no natural rights. human beings are a commidy, as are steel and woord. their lives are merely tools for the state to use as they see fit. they are not born with any right but the right to die. they can use that right on themselves any way they see fit.
[/OPINION]

I see somebody has been neglecting to brush up on his Newspeak. Beware, UberKrux: even the best of us can commit thought crime if we are not vigilant in enslaving ourselves to the will of the State.