why the hell isn't the US kicking the **** out of the palestinians?!?!

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Tom201

ppl. with no reason to hate u, wont atack u. same goes the other way round. easy as that.

Fanatics only require the confirmation of the twisted and perverted reasoning that goes on in their own head. They do not need a reason. They are by definition beyond the reach of reason.

The argument that fanatical terrorists can be reached by reasonable dialogue is as false as the one that supposes that they are terrorists because they are poor. Religious nuts do not need a reason. They will find an excuse one way or another. Someday, sit down in a restaurant with your wife and children and then after they have been blown to bits and you are left crippled by some nut who thinks that he is doing God a favor then you can judge Israel.

The problem in Palestine is that an entire generation has now been taught in the public schools that it is the supreme act of patriotism and religious service to kill yourself along with as many innocent Jews as possible. The "root" goes far beyond poverty and vengence. The problem is now in the very heart of an entire people.

[Shi Huangdi]

"They are by definition beyond the reach of reason."

People do not blow themselves up without a reason. They do so out of hatred for what Israel has done and for the amount of hopelessness in the eyes of Palestine's youth. The Palestinians have been humiliated and been placed under occupation.

"Religious nuts do not need a reason. They will find an excuse one way or another."

Religion often used as a facade to carry out acts of their hatred.

"Someday, sit down in a restaurant with your wife and children and then after they have been blown to bits and you are left crippled by some nut who thinks that he is doing God a favor then you can judge Israel."

And I trust you will reserve judgement on the Palestinians until your country had been placed under a brutal occupation, your people humiliated, and you have found yourself economically deprived.


"The problem in Palestine is that an entire generation has now been taught in the public schools that it is the supreme act of patriotism and religious service to kill yourself along with as many innocent Jews as possible. The "root" goes far beyond poverty and vengence. The problem is now in the very heart of an entire people."

Right. And Israel people learn that God has granted them the land they are on, they do not recognize any Palestinian right to live there, and so they believe Israel can do as is neccesary to the pals for their own security.

I support Israel and it's right to exist. I think if Israel were ever to fall, it would be a horrible humanitarian disaster. But Lincoln, you sometimes seem to lack any compassion or empathy for this downtrodden people(the Pals).

[MrWhereItsAt]

Siro, you'll correct me if I'm wrong (all too easy from half the world away), but haven't things got rather worse since Sharon came into power?

I don't doubt Israel has a right in anyone's books to defend itself and it's people against these terror bombers, but it seems the Israeli governments actions have really just helped inflame things recently, by causing a near equal amount of suffering to non-combatant Palestinians.

As difficult as it is to think of one that might work, is there really no other option open to Sharon than to add fuel to the fire with such a hardline (from rest of the world's POV) stance?

[MrWhereItsAt]

DP. Whoops.

[TCO]

Why shoudlk they? I don w=x=see what the incen ctuve s>???

[KrazyHorse]

What have you been ?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Why are you picking on Sharon?

Sharon's history is one of a warrior.

This kind of revisionist history has been going on for far too long.

Sharon's Crimes (Counterpunch)

From The Washington Post

The triumph of Arafat's retreat was short-lived for Sharon. He was forced to resign after an Israeli inquiry found him indirectly responsible for the massacre by pro-Israeli Lebanese Christian militiamen of more than 800 Palestinians at Beirut refugee camps in September 1982.

[MrFun]

Another ME thread -- how innovative and original.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I say nuke the place and make it a homeland for the gypsies .

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Sharon's a butcher, but the Palestinians can thank Arafat for his rise to power; if Arafat hadn't walked away from Camp David (the best deal he was ever going to get, and one in which the Israeli's were prepared to make real, serious, concessions), Barak's government wouldn't have fallen and Israel, inexasperation, wouldn't have tacked right.

And I must say I'm really sick of the line of argument that runs "but you have to understand what the Palestinians have been through." I do understand; it's been awful. And I understand that the only reason that they're living under the Israelis to begin with is that every Arab state (save Egypt) remains officially committed to wiping Israel off the face of the earth, and has voiced that commitment since the founding of Israel, 20 years before the occupation. After the thorough ass-kickings of '67 and '73, the "hot war" has stopped. But the commitment remains. The declarations of war are still in place, teh Arab states have failed to normalize relations with Israel (as required by a UN resolution passed 30 years ago, after the ass-kicking of '73), and Arab papers continue to print anti-Jewish (not merely anti-Israel) propoganda of the sort that would make a Nazi blush. Nobody's innocent here.

That being said, then, only one fact stands out for me: in the last few years, even under Sharon, the Israelis have been far, far more serious about the peace process than the Palestinians. The Israelis didn't walk away from Camp David; the Israelis aren't the ones violating cease-fires. History has enough guilt for everybody to share (including the sanctimonious, pro-Palestinian British, whose imperialist designs on the region after WWI arguably created the whole mess in the Middle East to begin with; see Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace for that fascinating, sickening history). But in the here-and-now, it's the Pals who are the problem. They showed that again last night.

[Ramo]

Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace for that fascinating, sickening history

Yep, that's an excellent book.

[Imran Siddiqui]

if Arafat hadn't walked away from Camp David (the best deal he was ever going to get, and one in which the Israeli's were prepared to make real, serious, concessions), Barak's government wouldn't have fallen and Israel, inexasperation, wouldn't have tacked right.

I seriously doubt that. And Arafat couldn't have taken it. Any peace that closes off Jerusalem is no suitable peace at all.

[Ramo]

Any peace that closes off Jerusalem is no suitable peace at all.

Or any peace that denies Palestinians their water resources.

[The Mad Monk]

What is your reason for saying that, Imran?

UR, Siro already said Sharon is indirectly responsible. Your point is pointless.

Shi, Lincoln is in Thailand. Or is it Tibet? Either way, I'm fairly sure he's had contact with 'oppresed peoples'.

The Palistinians violated a cease fire for the umpteenth time, without Isreali retaliation, and this time did it during one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar. Why should they get Jerusalem? Because of its religious signifance? What do the Palestinians care for religion--other than their own, that is?

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Ramo


Or any peace that denies Palestinians their water resources.

Let Saddam and the Saudis build them a desalination plant!