American democracy

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Go away, go hmmf shoot yourself on the foot with your permit gun or something. We are trying to solve problems here.

In that case the source of the problem seems to be your antiquated roaad infrarstructure.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


In that case the source of the problem seems to be your antiquated roaad infrarstructure.

Go play with your gun moneypenny!

You haven't understood anything as always.

Mississippi is a loong away from Athens. Go hmmmf milk a cow or something

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Mississippi is a loong away from Athens. Go hmmmf milk a cow or something

I'm sorry but the problem is one of two things:

1) The stupid way in which the Greek government issues permits for demonstrations or;

2) A decaying infrastructure that can not handle the stress a large demonstration will put upon it by blocking major roads.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I'm sorry but the problem is one of two things:

1) The stupid way in which the Greek government issues permits for demonstrations or;

2) A decaying infrastructure that can not handle the stress a large demonstration will put upon it by blocking major roads.

I see you have left the cow waiting...

1. There is no "stoppid" way. It's like saying the Black Panthers is a terrorist group or mississippi is the mother land of human rights

There is a "sensitivity" in "controlling" marches. When marches I don;t mean the big, serious ones but the little insignificant ones of 100 people

That means that they do control them but they avoid to "stop" them from occupying the streets.

I don;t think it's legislation since you have an open approach that you can take in interpreting a law.

There is sensitivity in not "be seen" as hindering demonstrations because you would be critised of not being "democratic" if you do.

This has its roots at the dictatorship that brutally stopped all dissidents.

As an example when some stupid really people are fed up with all this demos they say "what you need is a Papadopoulos" (=the dictator). Of course these are fools.

2. Athens was originally planned to accomodate 500.000 people. Now it has 5.000.000 draw your conclusions.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
1. There is no "stoppid" way.

Of course there is. Greece seems to have found it if your are telling me the unvarnished truth. If the problem is as bad as you say, it sounds like they are allowing unregulated access to all comers wrt permits. If that is so, they are effectively reducing the utility of traditional public forums as conduits for speech.

There is sensitivity in not "be seen" as hindering demonstrations because you would be critised of not being "democratic" if you do.

This seems to be the real stumbling block to instituting reasonable legislation. Has there been any efforts to institue content neutral time, place, & manner restrictions similar to what most of the US has in order to curb the execeses that you describe?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I'm sorry but the problem is one of two things:

1) The stupid way in which the Greek government issues permits for demonstrations or;

2) A decaying infrastructure that can not handle the stress a large demonstration will put upon it by blocking major roads.

I know you're usually a better arguer than this.

Surely you do not mean to use the word stupid when you do not understand the way foreign countries do certain things??

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
Surely you do not mean to use the word stupid when you do not understand the way foreign countries do certain things??

I do it for 2 Reasons:

1) It's part of the give and take relationship I seem to have established with Moneypenny.

2) It's also the only way I can get straight answers out of him.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Of course there is. Greece seems to have found it if your are telling me the unvarnished truth. If the problem is as bad as you say, it sounds like they are allowing unregulated access to all comers wrt permits. If that is so, they are effectively reducing the utility of traditional public forums as conduits for speech.

There's no "stoopid". It's like saying americans are stoopid because they don;t know anything outside of their country or 'cause they don;t have passports. That's of course not true. They are stoopid because they are americans

There are "issues" who have developped through historical and social events

This seems to be the real stumbling block to instituting reasonable legislation.

Yes that is the one.

Has there been any efforts to institue content neutral time, place, & manner restrictions similar to what most of the US has in order to curb the execeses that you describe?

It is an ever going process. Not too little so the citizens do not become tottaly exasperated - not too much so they don't cry "fascists".(although few would do that - they really all hate those 100 little pissheads blocking the road - that's the general conception)

Politics is the art of the achievable.

Now the problem exists and it is big. Greeks have a lot of humour. Also they are very prone to quick anger and then they can be friends in two secons like nothing happened. A whirpool of deep "life" emotions.

So on one hand people "understand" and try to be humorous about the whole thing. On the other they become angry.
I am one of the exceptions who do acknowledge the fact hat protests are good. But if it is only from 100 people and the general population just couldn;t care less then what does this accomplish?
Just to piss off drivers.

[Bereta_Eder]

let's take educators for example. or farmers.

let's take farmers.

they earn huge from the EU. They have villas build with subsidy money and they were given years to change their crops to something else due to the overproduction of goods.

They went out on the streets why? for what reason? to build 2 villas? give me a fooking break. and the communist party delights in exciting people like them. it really does. and all it does is creating trouble on the streets and on the economy.

in that respect and since it was obvious that the population does not condone the farmers "demands" they were forcefully evicted from the capital.

but you can;t do that for the senior citizens for example. you simply can't if they want to demonstrate (as they should since pensions in Greece are very low) you can't sent the riot police squds on the "proud old timers" as senior citizens are called by the politicians (so they don;t ask for much

biut they did. they sent the riot police against them. Now some of these old timers are war veterans and they beat up the riot police
in any case this has brought outrage amongst the people, to send riot police against the proud old timers is inexcusable.


so it depends on what the people feel. that is where the responce of the state will be based.

[Bereta_Eder]

as to if measures are being taken to hold demos in secluded areas:I don't know. we still ask what is the demonstration to day?

so that's how people feel. they don't even know who is protesting. all they know is that they have to endure one more martyrdome inside their cars.

But keep in mind. Left wing Greek youth is fearsome and fearless. To mess them up means to pay a price.
In all honesty Greeks are very difficult to govern. They simple don;t like it. And they distrust any governemt. Greece is the opposite of Scandinavia in this respect.

But I still can't see what wrong would come out of breaking up and not giving alisence to every body who wants to have a demo of 100 people.

I am all for that changing.

[VetLegion]

Why dont you build a subway in Athens? Or an above-ground rail system? From what I understand, the traffic is terrible down there. I even read ambulance cars cannot penetrate it, so they are thinking about motorcycle first-aid crews

Anyway, I think you can even get EU money for this, if you mask it as an enviroment problem or something (and it is enviroment problem with all those cars)

get rid of cars.

I still have to hear about protesters stopping a metro

[Shi Huangdi]

You won't see as many street demonstrations in the USA. Although we were formed in a revolution and we fought a bloody civil war, the USA is much closer to the English way of change, that is change through evolution rather than change through revolution. And although the USA does have corporate influences on the government, it is still very much a democracy where politicians are held accountable to the people.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Why dont you build a subway in Athens? Or an above-ground rail system? From what I understand, the traffic is terrible down there. I even read ambulance cars cannot penetrate it, so they are thinking about motorcycle first-aid crews

Anyway, I think you can even get EU money for this, if you mask it as an enviroment problem or something (and it is enviroment problem with all those cars)

get rid of cars.

I still have to hear about protesters stopping a metro

VetLegion we already have a metro. It's the most technologically advanced in Europe. (it is fairly new) And according to many the most beautiful.

Get rid of cars. That's the solution Back to nature baby!

[axi]

let's take farmers.

they earn huge from the EU. They have villas build with subsidy money and they were given years to change their crops to something else due to the overproduction of goods.

They went out on the streets why? for what reason? to build 2 villas? give me a fooking break. and the communist party delights in exciting people like them. it really does. and all it does is creating trouble on the streets and on the economy.

in that respect and since it was obvious that the population does not condone the farmers "demands" they were forcefully evicted from the capital.

Not all farmers are the same. There are big farmers, who declare to the authorities more production than they have and suck the subsidy coffers dry. There are small family farmers who struggle to make a decent living and send their kids to a university. There are earth laborers, chiefly immigrants who are overworked and underpayed. A few years ago, it was customary to provide the Albanian illegal immigrants with just their food and water for the day, plus some old piece of clothing for charity. The big farmers are not the people whose rights the left (be it the Communist Party or anyone else) is trying to express - those are expressed by the agrosyndicalists of the right (Nea Dimokratia) who are demanding extremely different amendments in the legislation than the big farmers do. It was the poor farmers who manned the roadblocks, it was them who demonstrated in Athens and were beaten up by the riot police. It was the big farmers however who, under the instructions of ND backed off and let the govt off the hook (plus the maintenance of the subsidy status for tobacco by the EU).

The whole EU agricultural subsidy system is stupid, counterproductive and rotten to the ground. It is created to maintain the European agricultural production against a world competition of cheapo agricultural products, while OTOH it artificially limits this production, in order to keep the prices high enough to make the thing profitable. I am really unable to understand this system.

as to if measures are being taken to hold demos in secluded areas:I don't know. we still ask what is the demonstration to day?

so that's how people feel. they don't even know who is protesting. all they know is that they have to endure one more martyrdome inside their cars.

But keep in mind. Left wing Greek youth is fearsome and fearless. To mess them up means to pay a price.
In all honesty Greeks are very difficult to govern. They simple don;t like it. And they distrust any governemt. Greece is the opposite of Scandinavia in this respect.

But I still can't see what wrong would come out of breaking up and not giving alisence to every body who wants to have a demo of 100 people.

I am all for that changing.

People do not know "who is demonstrating today" because the media purposefully bury the news for all demonstrations and strikes. Even when they do inform the public, they just say that "hospitals will be closed tomorrow, doctors are on strike" or "centre is out of bounds tomorrow due to student demonstration". Well, guess what, a demo or a strike are more than just another convenience information to the public (to the tune of "airport will be closed due to bad weather"), these are political events which have a reason to exist and a grudge to lay forward to society. When I am informed that the doctors are on stike, I want to know WHY they are on strike and what the govt does about their demands - only then can I express my support or non-support to them. So the last ones to blame for the angry and complaining civilians are the strikers and the demonstrators themselves. Of course, if the media were as sensitive of such issues as they should be, no govt would stay in power for long.

As for demonstration permits, no group of people should need a permit to demonstrate. Informing the police so that traffic measures are effected is another issue, but asking the state to permit you to use one of your basic rights is out of the question. Did you know paiktis, that the police restricting a pedestrian to walk on a certain street is violating the constitution? Yet you should see the way they had blocked the streets around the Polytechneion in 17 November, when I had to ask my way around 4 police roadblocks to get access to the premises, just before the demo (obviously that was a tactic used to obstruct and intimidate the people concentrating).

Anti-demonstration legislation was actually created, but it has not been effected yet. I am afraid that we will see many such legal tools in the hands of the police, next time there is a big event (see thessaloniki 2003 and the 2004 Olympics).

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by axi
Not all farmers are the same. There are big farmers, who declare to the authorities more production than they have and suck the subsidy coffers dry. There are small family farmers who struggle to make a decent living and send their kids to a university. There are earth laborers, chiefly immigrants who are overworked and underpayed. A few years ago, it was customary to provide the Albanian illegal immigrants with just their food and water for the day, plus some old piece of clothing for charity. The big farmers are not the people whose rights the left (be it the Communist Party or anyone else) is trying to express - those are expressed by the agrosyndicalists of the right (Nea Dimokratia) who are demanding extremely different amendments in the legislation than the big farmers do. It was the poor farmers who manned the roadblocks, it was them who demonstrated in Athens and were beaten up by the riot police. It was the big farmers however who, under the instructions of ND backed off and let the govt off the hook (plus the maintenance of the subsidy status for tobacco by the EU).

ALL the farmers are subject to the same legislation. All farmers get subsidies for their crops. Small as well as big. All of them had time to change their crops to something else. And most of them exagerate their production so they get more subsidies.

The whole EU agricultural subsidy system is stupid, counterproductive and rotten to the ground. It is created to maintain the European agricultural production against a world competition of cheapo agricultural products, while OTOH it artificially limits this production, in order to keep the prices high enough to make the thing profitable. I am really unable to understand this system.

Many share your opinion and I do too. This system was developped so that the European Community had self suficiency in food products. The problem is that it worked too well. Now we have overproduction and we don't know what to do with it hence the half measures. So things have to change.

People do not know "who is demonstrating today" because the media purposefully bury the news for all demonstrations and strikes. Even when they do inform the public, they just say that "hospitals will be closed tomorrow, doctors are on strike" or "centre is out of bounds tomorrow due to student demonstration".

Newspapers do write about that. Chanels don't air it because it is not newsworthy.
When the people got out for the pensions reform everybody aired it. And all opinions were heard. When 100 people go out for something that is not concrete it is not aired. People don't want to know the positions of an extra-parliamentary left wing and its ideas that frankly sometimes are out of touch with reality. They want to know how much they'll have to wait in traffic and what to avoid.

Well, guess what, a demo or a strike are more than just another convenience information to the public (to the tune of "airport will be closed due to bad weather"), these are political events which have a reason to exist and a grudge to lay forward to society. When I am informed that the doctors are on stike, I want to know WHY they are on strike and what the govt does about their demands - only then can I express my support or non-support to them. So the last ones to blame for the angry and complaining civilians are the strikers and the demonstrators themselves. Of course, if the media were as sensitive of such issues as they should be, no govt would stay in power for long.

See it this way. In a march you walk for say 1 hour and it's all over. All you leave behind are pissed off drivers and the only ones you reach are those who happen to pass by. And most will try to avoid it so they go about their business faster.

In a big plaza you can hang around for hours, from morning to sunset distributing pamhlets and reaching the thousands of people who will pass through. Even a big sign with one central message will be viewed many more times that if it was a 1 hour march. Meanwhile you don't anger the population at all. And your views are passed on.Remember you are talking to someone who reads Babel for Christ' sake "Fatherland, religion,family" make me puke just listening to that slogan I'm not saying go home and do nothing. Just prioritize the emergency of each protest and treat it accordingly. If you know that thousands of people will come to the streets, do it. If only 100 will stop the traffic I think that it is counterproductive.

Yet you should see the way they had blocked the streets around the Polytechneion in 17 November, when I had to ask my way around 4 police roadblocks to get access to the premises, just before the demo (obviously that was a tactic used to obstruct and intimidate the people concentrating).

I've been to the 17 November marches in my younger days. I had no problem what so ever in reaching the american embassy. I was not intimidated by police. We marched in peace.
The real danger is the attempt to generate them into mindless riots. The team of self - guard of the demonstrators did a good job the last time. Maybe they are agent provocateurs but also so called anarchists.
It has to be a peaceful march or it will degenerate.

Anti-demonstration legislation was actually created, but it has not been effected yet. I am afraid that we will see many such legal tools in the hands of the police, next time there is a big event (see thessaloniki 2003 and the 2004 Olympics).

I believe that society will vomit like poison laws that go beyond what is popularily acceptable. Again it has to do with how many people go to the marches.
The sad reality is that people don't know and only care about what affects them directly. Pensions, social security, taxes etc.
Inform the people, yes, but taking into account their everyday needs too.