How to counter zionist propaganda

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mr. President
Yacht? I thought communists weren't allowed personal possessions.

Irony is lost on some people, isn't it? Anyway, we aren't opposed to personal property but private property in the means of production. There's a major difference between the two.

Without "Western imperialism" none of us would have the computers we're writing these stupid arguments on.

Maybe, maye not. Who knows how far we would have gotten if we weren't held back by capitalism.

Try working eighteen hours a day on a kolkhoz somewhere in Siberia, and then tell me how much you like living in America.

Trying living in California's Pelican Bay and then tell me how much you like living in America. Outside of prison camps and voluntary labor programs, no one worked 18 hours a day in the USSR. And contrary to myth, the vast majority of people in prison camps got to leave and were sent there for actual crimes like theft, murder, and rape, not thought crimes.

[GeneralTacticus]

Actually it was. After WWII, the USSR occupied the North and we the South. There was already a revolution in the country. In the North it bcame the government, in the South it was overturned and it's supporters massacred in the hundreds of thousands.

BS. There was no revolution in Korea. The Soviets actually PICKED who was going to lead NK. They trained the army, the secret police, etc. Kim Il Sung was actually a captain in the Soviet army at the time. If you'd actually bothered to read your history, you'd know that the Soviets agreed that the UN would hold elections to determine the fate of Korea. The catch was that the Soviets wouldn't let the election observers into NK, thereby meaning that the country was only allowed elections in the South. Then the communists convened a massive leftist conference in Pyongyang, which resolved to boycott the elections altogether. This is the reason why a right-wing bastard like Syngman Rhee came to power. If the communists had given jack about re-unification, they'd have taken part in the elections themselves, but instead they decided to keep the nation divided so they could blame all their problems on 'U.S. Imperialism', which cg seems to be doing too.

Maybe, maye not. Who knows how far we would have gotten if we weren't held back by capitalism.

When are you commies going to realize that humans are NOT going to behave perfectly just because they should? Communism has been tried and it doesn't work. If it were true all workers were just waiting to throw off the yoke of capitalism and and would go socialist at the first opportunity, the world would have gone socialist by 1920. There wouldn't have been a Russian Civil War either.

Yes. You forgot India, Pakistan, the Ukraine, and Kazakstan.

Even your beloved Soviet Union? Would you dislike Saddam if he'd finished developing his nukes?

Anyways, everyone else does it is not a valid defense of torture.

I never said it was. However, you seem to ignore the fact that the Arabs do it too. Something of a double standard.

As for your statements on racism, by that definition, the Soviet Union was also racist, as it was a 'workers state'.

[chequita guevara]

This is off-thread, some I'm not going to counter your arguments here.

[Az]

so you are going to "criticize them" ? well thank you...

how about hating them... the nationalist bastards , aye?

I somehow feel that it won't get even nearly to the amount of **** Israel gets... .despite the fact the people , all people, live better here , thanks to the awful government.


I still don't understand why you'd rather support Saddam , than the US. what would you rather see? a 'saddam' world, or a 'US' world?

[Zoid]

Dal, this marxist critque of zionism is a bit more difficult to pinpoint then I anticipated. I just stumbled over the writings of Ber Bochorov (russian marxist-zionist and co-founder of the Poale Zion Party) and it´s interesting reading indeed. I´m also reading critique of of Bochovorism by Ernest Mandel and Nathan Weinstock.

When I´m finished I´ll post my critique (if there will be any...). Just so you know, I´m not taking this lightly

[Kropotkin]

Re: Re: How to counter zionist propaganda

Haven't read all, there's to much of looong posts for me to read them all at my current state (the day after a saturday) but this statement by Sirotnikov caught my eye:

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Estimated Population of Palestine 1870-1946*
Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000

IIRC those numbers include also parts of Jordan which were considered palestine.

In any case, how do you explain the rapid growth of 400% from 1870 to 1946 of the Arab population?

In the only way one can - immigration.

Which proves that most (1,200,000 - 350,000) arabs immigrated to Palestine in the same time that Jews did.

This is really a poxy-proof! It proves nothing at all! A simple calculation with a population growth of 1,5% per year would explain the entire increase i arab population 1870-1946. The 1,5% figure is quite normal for 3rd world countries today. The same growth of jews without immigration would give a total population of about 22 000 in 1946.

So your statement that this is proof in itself is not a valid statement at all. In fact it would suggest that the immigration of jews in the area greatly exceeds the arab net-migration.

If one wants to understand the rate of net-migration of arabs one has to use other numbers than raw population figures. Population growth numbers would be nice for example so one can estimate the influence of immigration of both groups.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
so you are going to "criticize them" ? well thank you...

how about hating them... the nationalist bastards , aye?

Hate is such a destructive emotion. I like to not have it in my life, thank you very much.

I somehow feel that it won't get even nearly to the amount of **** Israel gets... .despite the fact the people , all people, live better here , thanks to the awful government.

Well, the people in the Occupied Territories certainly don't. The West expects better of Israel because Jews had to go through what they are now dishing out and because, as it's defenders continually point out, it is a democracy. But it is a nasty, brutish, little thug of a state. Many of us in the West also sincerely believe that Israel's efforts at combatting terrorism are counter-productive, and we'd like to see Israel live in peace.

By engaging in collective punishment of the whole Palestinian people for the actions of a few, Israel only engenders more hate among it's occupied. This in turn creates more terror, which brings down harsher repression upon the whole Palestinian people, which continues the cycle of hatred and violence. Or Israel does boneheaded stuff like undermining people who it can work with. For the first decade of its existence, Hamas received funds from Israel, because Israel hoped that the conservative Islamic group would undermine the secular-socialist PLO. Well, they succeeded, only to see Hamas sponsor terrorist.

I still don't understand why you'd rather support Saddam , than the US. what would you rather see? a 'saddam' world, or a 'US' world?

Ceterus parabus, I'd rather see the the world be the United States not Saddam's Iraq. However, all things are not equal, and Iraq has a very short reach, where as no place on Earth is safe from the US. If I'm in the woods, and I have to choose between a path with poisonous snake or one with a bear, I'll take the snake. Anyway, it isn't a choice between a Saddam world or an US world. It's a choice between a world in which little thugs are propped up by the US, and the US gets to do what it wants, where it wants, to whomever it wants or a more just one. After all, it was because it was a US world that Saddam got into power in the first place.

Ideally I want a world without Iraq, the US, and Israel, and all other states for that matter.

[markusf]

Israel is a racist state run by terrorists. And so are most of the other arab states in the middle east. So lets jump ahead 50 years, whats going to happen when all those states have developed nuclear and chemical weapons? How long is it going to take for some zealot to get his hands on one and use it against the USA or Isreal, or isreal against some arab state? WW3 starting in that region doesn't seem to be a question of if, but more of a when.

[Az]

thank you . markusf , for getting a new and refreshing insight into the discussion.

Kropotkin:

actually... I think only with the growth of around 3.4% percent , this would be possible. And yes, I checked it. I actually built a miniature computer program for it!


#include
#include
#include
#define GROWTH 1.015
main(){
int index;
float population;
clrscr();
population=367224.00;
for (index=0;index<40;index++){
population=population*(GROWTH);
}

printf("%f",population);
getch();
return 0;
}

I hope I got it right...

KX :

. For the first decade of its existence, Hamas received funds from Israel, because Israel hoped that the conservative Islamic group would undermine the secular-socialist PLO

source........
anyhow, this vaguely reminds me of your post claiming the Zionist groups rescued only the rich people during the holocaust...

[Ramo]

Dalgetti, you should use diff eq's instead. They're much less of a pain to work with than computer progs (good for lazy people).

P = Po*exp(rt)

[Az]

Ramo? I've got this little problem... I don't know them , since I'm in highschool and all....

[Kropotkin]

Dalgetti: I did it in excel, I don't know any programming (exept basic on my C-64) so I can't jdge if it's right or not but I made my calculations again and I got the same result; each year is the result of t=t-1*1,015. I'm quite sure it's right since the graph looks alright too. Is it possible that you missed out on the fact that a growth of 1,5% gets bigger and bigger in absolute terms during the period?

No matter what, Sirotnikovs statement is no proof at all even if your calculation with a growth of 3,4% would of cource make immigration stand out at a more possible cause. That it would be any proof of it is however bs as we need to no something about population growth, the demographic transistion in Palestine and migration flows to produce any proofs at all.

[Ramo]

You don't need to know how to solve them. Just memorizing a few solutions to a few diff eq's can help a lot (the one I just posted is useful when the rate of increase of a quantity is proportional to that quantity).

[Jaguar]

Name one useful thing Palestine has done, ever. Enlighten us, Kamrat.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by markusf
Israel is a racist state run by terrorists.

Nope.

Ariel Sharon has yet to commit one terror act.

Sabra&Shatilla was performed under his reponsability, yet a court has established he was not aware of the events.

Kibye was also a tragic mistake, when Israelis blew up buildings containing ammunition after evacuating them of residents. It appeared that a group which hid in the basement of one building was not evacuated and they died.

And so are most of the other arab states in the middle east.

Give me a name of one not racist arab state in the ME.

The only state which isn't actively involved in terror is Jordan.

So lets jump ahead 50 years, whats going to happen when all those states have developed nuclear and chemical weapons?

That's why we're trying to stop Iran and Iraq.

How long is it going to take for some zealot to get his hands on one and use it against the USA or Isreal, or isreal against some arab state?

For Israel to use such a weapon.... only in case of total annihilation.

And we don't have such weapons btw. It's a reasearch reactor we have in Dimona.

WW3 starting in that region doesn't seem to be a question of if, but more of a when.

Interesting.

You know, there are rumors of Israeli troops amassing near the syrian and lebanese borders.