How to counter zionist propaganda

[Arrian]

A pox on both their houses.

-Arrian

[Natan]

Absurd lies. Israel is of course a democracy; Arabs have full voting rights, serve in the Knesset and recieve the same generous welfare benefits as do Jews and all other Israeli citizens. Peaceful transitions of power occur after every election.

Interestingly though, this maniacal hatred of Zionism does not seem to be balanced with even the slightest concern about Baathism, which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and established totalitarian rule in three or four different countries.

The claim that Mizrahi Jews were not expelled from Arab countries is also a flat out lie. Just because they were not expelled in 1948 does not mean they were not expelled. Egypt, for example, simply expelled its Jews by law in the 50s. As simple as that, a law saying all Jews had to leave the country. In Morocco, Iraq, and Syria mass looting was rampant, and this often led to murder. Iraq finally staged some show trials in the late 1960s to give the remaining Jews the message.

As for the rest, I can't be bothered, and Kamrat seems more interested in tossing around insulsts and venting his rage at "Zionists" than in having an intelligent discussion. Just go to http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html if you want a mutual trading of links.

Although I would take issue with Dalgetti. Saudi Arabia may not be paradise, but I'll take it over Iraq any day of the week. The history of socialism in the Arab world is that of oppression, totalitarianism and sectarianism.

[Az]

Natan:

that pic is quite disturbing. I don't know why, but it is .

on the point:

Although I would take issue with Dalgetti. Saudi Arabia may not be paradise, but I'll take it over Iraq any day of the week. The history of socialism in the Arab world is that of oppression, totalitarianism and sectarianism

well , the Baath party, that rules syria, iraq, and IIRC egypt , cannot be considered socialist, since it doesn't move to secularize the society , create equality , and educate the people.

I am not quite aware of their agenda, their political philosophy. but their deeds show that whatever it is, their only real intentions are to continue ruling their countries, staying in power, which is the first symptom of the old fashion dictator.

KX: I can't wait.

Kropotikin:

the funny thing is that the socialists/communists of today use similar rethorics to the anti-semites of the beginning of the century. Zionism as global evil, the cause of the troubles of the world. That's what really sickens me. Some of the vampire pics remind me of the anti-semite propoganda that I saw in the books from the 1890's and the 1900's .... The resemblance.
The more I think about it the more I see the cartoonists aiming for the same feelings hidden in europeans that haven't died out yet.


"I don't hate you because you're a jew , I hate you because you're a zionist.".

[Natan]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Natan:

that pic is quite disturbing. I don't know why, but it is .

You're haunted by the face of the victim of the regime you supported.

well , the Baath party, that rules syria, iraq, and IIRC egypt

Mubarak's not Baathi. He's in some vague sense an heir to Nasser's pan-Arabism, but not all pan-Arabism is Baathi.

cannot be considered socialist, since it doesn't move to secularize the society

Syria is one of the most secular societies in the Middle East, and so is Iraq. They're amongst the few places where alcohol consumption and production are legal, one of the most liberal in terms of women's rights and education, and the most opposed to Islamic fundamentalism. In fact, the regimes have slaughtered tens of thousands to prevent Islamists from gaining power, because the regimes draw their support from religious minorities.

create equality

Too vague. Certainly, they did collective farming, government run industry, and all those other good socialist things.

and educate the people.

Iraq had a massive literacy campaign under Saddam Hussein which was actually quite successful. Syrians and Iraqis are more likely to be literate than Egyptians. It's just that they're also more likely to be tortured or killed, especially if they're Iraqi Kurds.

I am not quite aware of their agenda, their political philosophy. but their deeds show that whatever it is, their only real intentions are to continue ruling their countries, staying in power, which is the first symptom of the old fashion dictator.

And of a typical socialist regime. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship as well, but that doesn't keep it from being run by Islamic fundamentalists. Ditto for socialists.

the funny thing is that the socialists/communists of today use similar rethorics to the anti-semites of the beginning of the century. Zionism as global evil, the cause of the troubles of the world. That's what really sickens me. Some of the vampire pics remind me of the anti-semite propoganda that I saw in the books from the 1890's and the 1900's .... The resemblance.

Leftism was used as a cover for anti-Semitism throughout eastern Europe for decades in repeated purges of "Zionists" from the Communist party.

[Tom201]

Originally posted by Dalgetti

So now we see supposed communists/rad. socialists supporting Saddam , and crying wolf in the wrong places. I say that despite the fact that I am opposed to capitalism, the 'western' democracy is still closer to me than anything in Islam.

I don't like Islam. I find it oppressive to women. and well actually everyone. So aligning oneself with Islamic organizations ,is shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run, and the long run isn't that far away.

Hm, I wont consider myself as a communist (im somewhere in the social, liberal area). I do not take contra israeli standpoints cose of some block fighting or something. The simple reason is that the overall opinion published on tv etc, or on this forum, is too much pro israeli. There is no point in condeming pal terror acts, because its obvious and overdone by everyone already. The usuall propaganda u get on the news is pro israel (or usa). My personal standpoint is not full pal pro, its more centered. So I argue on standpoints that are more israel side especially because some israeli posters here tend to have radical views. No need for me to participate in more pal bashing that is already done by others to the extend.
I argue anything that I think is wrong, the last thing (after there is no doubt left) I do is to believe mainstream/official opinions. When your standpoint is the same as the one from the majority its time to rethink the issue.

Patriotism leads to blindness.

[Az]

touche , Natan..

don't worry Natan. I'll give you a run for your money.


just not now.

[Az]

Hm, I wont consider myself as a communist (im somewhere in the social, liberal area). I do not take contra israeli standpoints cose of some block fighting or something. The simple reason is that the overall opinion published on tv etc, or on this forum, is too much pro israeli. There is no point in condeming pal terror acts, because its obvious and overdone by everyone already. The usuall propaganda u get on the news is pro israel (or usa). My personal standpoint is not full pal pro, its more centered. So I argue on standpoints that are more israel side especially because some israeli posters here tend to have radical views. No need for me to participate in more pal bashing that is already done by others to the extend.
I argue anything that I think is wrong, the last thing (after there is no doubt left) I do is to believe mainstream/official opinions

well ,Tom , congratulations! the post apparently was not intended for the people holding an opinion similar to yours...

[Natan]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
touche , Natan..

don't worry Natan. I'll give you a run for your money.


just not now.

Good, I felt bad about making you type when it's Shabbat in your time zone.

[Az]

....

time to get some sleep now!

good night!

[Az]

bum bum bum bum , bum bum bum bum , bum bump!!!

[Kropotkin]

The simple reason is that the overall opinion published on tv etc, or on this forum, is too much pro israeli.

Not strange that so many hear on the forum are pro Israeli since there's a bunch of Israelis hear and not a single pal. What I find strange is that you all seem so pro gov't. Maybe it's cause your debating with people that are from other countries and thus a bit more nationalistic than usual. I get the impression that there's a growing intelectual middle class that wants nothing of it and like to move away or get rid of the crazed settlers (about 30 000).

[Az]

30,000? what is this figure? the percentage of the settlers that is crazy?


anyway, I am waiting for KX's response . go away.

[Faeelin]

You think there's a pro Israeli bias? Here, where people routinely praise Arafat and call Sharon a war criminal?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Kropotikin:

the funny thing is that the socialists/communists of today use similar rethorics to the anti-semites of the beginning of the century. Zionism as global evil, the cause of the troubles of the world. That's what really sickens me. Some of the vampire pics remind me of the anti-semite propoganda that I saw in the books from the 1890's and the 1900's .... The resemblance.
The more I think about it the more I see the cartoonists aiming for the same feelings hidden in europeans that haven't died out yet.


"I don't hate you because you're a jew , I hate you because you're a zionist."

Well, part of the problem is that in order to fight Trotskyism, Stalin resorted to anti-Semitism in the late 1920s. Later, apparently, Golda Mier apparently offended Stalin and his paranoid butt began thinking the Jews were out to get him. Anti-semitism has been part of the Communist/socialist movement since then. Which is damned ironic, since we were founded and led by Jews for the longest time (and in many cases still are--and there's nothing wrong with that ).

As for the rest of us, there are many reasons to dislike Israel.

1) Israel is a colonial-settler state.

2) Israel is racist state, in that it is self-describes Jewish state. Croatia got the same crap from the left when it described itself as a state for the Croatian people.

3) Israel denies re-entry of the refugess from 1948 for fear of losing it's Jewish idenity described in #2.

4) Israel is an agressor state, having launched every war it has been involved in: with the exception of 1973.

5) Israel has nuclear weapons.

6) Israel steals water from the Occupied Territories.

7) Israel illegally settles the Occupied Territories.

8) Israel engages in collective punishment for the actions of a few.

9) Israel uses torture.

10) Israel engages in extra-judicial executions.

11) Israel is an agent of American imperialism in the ME.

12) Israel demolishes homes in the Occupied Territories that it decides are illegal or for security reasons, only to later use it for building settlements.

And so on.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Faeelin
You think there's a pro Israeli bias? Here, where people routinely praise Arafat and call Sharon a war criminal?

Who praises Arafat at all, let alone routinely?