Would Finland have been better off if it had remained part of Russia?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by -=Vagrant=-

Who did you fight against to have Finland under your rule?
Hint: it wasn't the russians.

Well actually it was... Until the middle of the 12th century, the geographical area that is now Finland was a political vacuum, and interesting to both its western neighbour Sweden and the Catholic Church there, and its eastern neighbour Novgorod ( Russia) and its Greek Orthodox Church. Sweden came out on top, as the peace treaty of 1323 between Sweden and Novgorod assigned only eastern Finland to Novgorod. The western and southern parts of Finland were tied to Sweden and the Western European cultural sphere, while eastern Finland, i.e. Karelia, became part of the Russo-Byzantine world.

[-=Vagrant=-]

I hate it when they find out the facts!

[Zoid]

*smacks Vagrant over the head with a history textbook*

[laurentius]

Goddammit you mule! I can't vote

[TCO]

Didn't Russia effectively order Finland's foreign policy? Finland was Finlandized. Didn't do anything to upset Russia.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
(..)I demand a return to the borders of 1658!

I demand a return to the borders of 1920!

EDIT: No! Scrap that!
I demand a return to the borders of Hitler's secret plans in 1940!
All the way to Ural!

Didn't Russia effectively order Finland's foreign policy? Finland was Finlandized. Didn't do anything to upset Russia.

This goes way back to -68 presidentual elections...
Kekkonen vs. Honka. Kekkonen was highly known Soviet buttlicker then,
and would not been winning those elections. But, something like 2 weeks before
the elections, Hrustststsev calls for 'Help' against BDR. Incredible amount of fuss.
WW3 speculations started. Kekkonen goes all the way from Hawaii to
Moscow to talk from this 'defence attack'.

They talk about 2 hours, and simsalabim, ww3 has been stopped, Finns don't have to attack against
west, Kekkonen is the world saver! After that, Kekkonen was voted over
80 % landslide against others in all the elections he was in
(1968 to 1981, when he got some disease and died after).

Well, since 1960's to lat 80's there were major buttlicking line in politics to avoid
Soviet Invasion. Buttlicking stopped when Gorba came.

Confused? So am I.


USSR -39 disaster was mainly the result of crappy leadership.

[Kassiopeia]

This poll be rigged. I have seen more democratic elections in Iraq, not to mention Zimbabwe. At least there you can choose...

Suur-Suomi takaisin!

[Andemagne]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
No. Worse. AFAIK, there are really three different ethnic groups (or four?) in Finland, Finns, Swedish, Lapps, and perhaps a sizeable fraction of Russians.

As far as I know there is no swedes living in finland,
some finnish people just speak swedish. all the
russians living in finland are tourist.
about the lapps, they are small minority and are mostly
mixed with "finns", Hell! I partly Lapp myself.


and NO, finland is better of without russia.
(but they could give Karelia and Petsamo back to us )

[Adalbertus]

some finnish people just speak swedish

I hate those "by definition" nationalities.
I cannot believe that over a few centuries of Swedish occupation/simply belonging to Sweden/something else nobody crossed the Baltic Sea.
OK, as long asyou don't have problems with that - mine is it certainly not.

There are however countries in which there are bloody conflicts about that.

[David Floyd]

Blah..Blah..Blah....
It was very cold winter -40C and even -50C. It was impossible to use tanks at such teperatures because engines don't started. Plus you had the best fortification of that times the Mannergaim's Line. And Finaly in 1944 all Finish army plus 15 German divisions located on Finish territory was defeated in one forceful blow.

The Soviet tanks WERE pieces of ****.
And the "defeat" of Finland has already been explained to you.

Oh, and why don't you recap what happened at Suomussalmi? I'll get you started - there were 900 Finn casualties against 27,000 Russian ones

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by David Floyd


The Soviet tanks WERE pieces of ****.
And the "defeat" of Finland has already been explained to you.

Oh, and why don't you recap what happened at Suomussalmi? I'll get you started - there were 900 Finn casualties against 27,000 Russian ones

Result : Finnish army finally gets rifles to deliver to its army.
Thanks a lot, soviets

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd


The Soviet tanks WERE pieces of ****.
And the "defeat" of Finland has already been explained to you.

If you want to see a biggest pieces of ***** then look on American tanks in WW2. You had the worse tanks of WW2.

And get out of this thread this our Russo-Finns showdowns. We can easily clear all things without your aid.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Hurricane
First, the Mannerheim Line was not "the best fortification of that times". Far from it. It was just a line of scattered bunkers and trenches. What made it so hard to penetrate was the favourable terrain for defence, thanks to the large number of small lakes.

With minefields, somethimes with 40 lines of barbed wire instead of usual 2-3 lines, with 2 meters bunkers walls made of concrete and another 2,5 meters of rocks beynd the bunkers walls and very favourable terrain. Do not insult people who created this line, it was very good fortification complex.

Second, the Finnish army was NOT defeated in 1944. The Russians were in fact completely stopped, at the battle of Tali-Ihantala.
The Russians understood that the Finnish army had a lot of power left, and with the race for Berlin taking priority, Soviet decided to let Finland sign a peace with them. Finland was the only Axis country who did not capitulate, and was neither occupied at any time.

Agreed, I should used words "drived out of the game", not "destroyed". As you said, Stalin realised that Finns have power left, and defeat of Finland was not the prime goal, race for Berlin was much more important.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Serb

If you want to see a biggest pieces of ***** then look on American tanks in WW2. You had the worse tanks of WW2.

So true.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Serb

With minefields, somethimes with 40 lines of bribe wire instead of usual 2-3 lines, with 2 meters bunkers walls made of concrete and another 2,5 meters of rocks beynd the bunkers walls and very favourable terrain. Do not insult people who created this line, it was very good fortification complex.(..)

Wasn't Mannerheim line created after the war had started?