Best Seafaring culture of all times?

[Immortal Wombat]

Where wood floats, you will find the British.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Where wood floats, you will find the British.

I thought it was "where crap floats"

[Immortal Wombat]

nope, wood

[Bereta_Eder]

ok.

[Lars-E]

Re: Best Seafaring culture of all times?

Phoenicians/Carthaginians: One of the first sea trading nations in the planet, first to create trading colonies, one of the two major forces dominating the Mediterranean BC, said to be the first to circumvent Africa.

I vote for the Phoenicians who settled in what later became The Holy Land. Thus not Carthagian Phoenicians. The former might be the ancestors of the Philistines - the ancestors(?) of today's Palestinians - maybe in combo with descendants of Ismael - Arabs. That last part is the point where I'm most unsure.

King Solomon sent out a Phoenician and he supposedly sailed all the way around Africa Around 1200 BC?

Hanno sure was a great seafarer and one of the first long distance travellers:

Fl. c. 480? B.C., Carthaginian navigator. He founded seven towns on the Atlantic shore of Morocco and probably explored the Atlantic coast of Africa to Sierra Leone.

So this guy was one of the first to travel the west coast of Africa way down. Arabs must have been travelling the east coast for ever.

Hanno was very early. What we know from history is that the explorers in this region after Hanno were Europeans, first and foremost Portuguese, but they didn't show up until 1400 at the earliest. The 16th century was the period when they had most explorers down there. It was like a race to see who could go furthest down. And at some point there was a cliff/rock formation that was a landmark and noone had passed. Think it was on a river bank in "the corner".

The problem or challenge if you may was to get funding and avoid 'fevers' - tropical diseases. And battling with the men longing for home.

But my vote goes to the earliest guys we know of. Thus it has to be the Phoenicians. They were well know in their time too to have excellent boats and for their excellent seamanship.

Some claim that the Chinese were early and found America. And Irish are claimed for that too. It is speculated that St Brendan who lived around 500 AD was the 1st to discover North America. This is based on "Navigatio sancti Brendani" which was authored in the 10th century and later spread all over Europe. The memory of Brendan is kept thru tradition and legend.

Since the last paragraph is more speculative I do not place great importance on it.

Of course every one on your list deserve credit. Being a "Viking descendant" I'd like to say something on them too. As I stated in an earlier thread Leiv Eiriksson and his crew first discovered North America. This is well documented thru excavations at L'Anse aux Meadows and specific data/info - landmarks etc. in Greenlanders saga and Eiriks saga, old maps, radiological (not the right word I'm sure) dating +++.

What is little know on the other hand is that a small Norwegian coin was found in a treasure in Maine, USA many years ago. The Nordic finding in this treasure has just recently been identified, although the treasure was discovered in 1957. That year the two amateur archeologists Guy Mellgren and Edward Runge started excavating a huge Indian settlement (Goddard site). It covers almost a metric hectar in Penobscot Bay. Gotta love the name The excavations lasted for 23 years working in the summers only. To cut along story short the Norwegian coin was issued between 1065 and 1080 AD, 1st half of King Olav Kyrre's reign. Most of the artifacts can be viewed in the Maine State Museum.

Thus the Norwegians, yes Leiv Eiriksson was Norwegian, might have been the first to discover present day USA as well. Not only Canada. Adam of Bremen gives clues to a USA-discovery as well.

BTW, when Americans say "Hey I'm from Minnesota!" when they act tuff... is this because a lot of Norwegians settled here from the 1800s and up? Norwegians like myself being tuff Viking descendants! You should be glad Christianity was forced on us otherwise the world would still be held in a grip of terror and awe of us. Modern day terrorists like Usama would be a smalltimers..

Minoans/Byzantines/Greeks: The first to buid and maintain warships and war fleets, with extensive trading colony network, the other major force in the Med BC. Inventors of the trireme, the dromund and the Greek fire. Long list of naval sucesses against the Persians, the Saracens, the Turks, the Italians. First to use arson ships in the 1821 revolution, first to commit aeronautical operation in the Balkan wars. Great sailors. Currently owners of one of the biggest merchant fleets in the world.

Your ppl are more know for other things.

Greek fire is a small plus. Like that ship icon in the Jihad scenario.

Vikings/Norse/Norwegians: The first to sail in the open ocean. Discovered Greenland and North America. Inventors of the drakkar, the best warship of it's time. Great legacy of seaborne raids. Best fishing fleet for the last couple of centuries. Great sailors. Currently owners of one of the biggest merchant fleets in the world.

Nice pointers, especially on the merchant fleet and fish fleet. One of the richest Norwegians made his billions catching fish outside Alaska when the competitors fleets were decimated in a storm. Reminds me of Bubba Gump

Discovered Iceland as well and settled it. Icleland and Greenland are somewhat equivalent to the Brits Australia and NZ.

British: The first to explore and colonise North America and Oceania and to discover the south pole. First to use the propeller. Inventors of the dreadnought. The first to employ buccaneers against their rivals. The best navy from the age of sail through to WW2, with major naval victories.

Rule Brittania. Were great way back when in imperialism-criminal-days Not anymore.

Excuse me! Amundsen was first to the South Pole! BTW, Scott's expedition lost many men and Scott himself died.

Spanish: The second to discover America, the first to colonise it. The first to circumvent the globe. Greatest power of the age of sail.

Good sailors, bad ppl.

Portuguese: Found a way to India around Africa. First europeans to travel to Indonesia, China and Japan. Set up a huge network of trading posts. Great sailors.

The Italian Marco Polo travelled inland to China in the 1300s and one the way back he went partly by ship. Even got to Ceylon (Sri Lanka) IIRC.

Were are the Italians at Apolyton?? Never seen one here..

Portuguese: Great sailors, not so high ethics..

Romans/Italians/Venetians/Genoese: Built the biggest ships of the ancient world. Major naval force of the mediterranean from time to time. The first to mount guns on warships (galleys).

Many slaves in the Galleys. Rowing. Kinda like the stuck-up noses in Cambridge / Oxford racing eachother.

The Romans can be noted for their seamanship in war.

The Genoese were especially well-known for seamanship.

Arabs/Saracens: Inventors of the triangle sail. Heavy trade and various discoveries in the Indian ocean. Great pirate culture, dominated the Med for a couple of centuries.

Sailed some long distances early. Good choice.

Chinese: Discovered half the world before the Europeans did. Had the biggest navy in the world until the 15th century, when they quit sailing for a mysterious reason.

Chinese sailed a lot and long distances especially in Southeast Asia. Went as far as India (spice-trips(?)) on a regular basis I think. Very good choice.

Americans: First to use the steamship. First to use ironclads. Perfected the aircraft carrier as the base for modern naval warfare. Biggest modern navy.

I guess after being forced unwillingly into WW2 they understood their own interests were at stake Selfishness? See sig.

Polynesians/Melanesians/Micronesians: Colonised all the Pacific with tiny boats. Used to travelling huge distances in the open sea.

Obvious choice.

A good reference is Thor Heyerdahl and his Ra and Tigris expeditions. A Norwegian 'sailor' imitating ancient sailors He amongst other things claims that South America was colonised be Polynesians travelling by boat. He has tried to 'prove' some of this stuff by building 'old' rafts and sailing the logical ancient routes. Following winds, streams, stars, etc.

To me the greatest seafaring cultures are judged by the special weight that seafaring has in the culture, regardless of navy size and number of achievements.

Regardless of navy size? Rules out modern day Norway then Culture? I c... Well then the Phonecians is an obvious choice. But you're thinking Geek here, right Should have seen that one coming

The Oddesey is a great piece of work I guess. Fiction. Yes, I know Troy has been excavated.

But could the Greek match the Persian fleets? And weren't the Greeks limited to the Egean Sea, Jonic Ocean, Adriatic Sea, and trips to Canaan and North Africa? Seems they were limited to the Med. Seatravel was dangerous and Herodot indicates the Greeks were afraid of it. IIRC.

At least if you compare the Phonecians and the Greeks when they both existed at the same time in history, the Phonecians clearly surpass the former. But then again the Phoenicians came from Crete some claim

As far as long distance travel the vikings surpass the Greeks. They travelled all the way to the Med and fought 'bluemen' in North Africa. They also travelled thru the Barents Sea and White Sea and then inland down great rivers to Istanbul and served as mercenaries there. Some aquired great wealth not only from this, but pillaging as well And Russia was founded by vikings. Rurik was the 1st king I think. It was not uncommon for Norwegian vikings to be raised here and elsewhere, but domestic as well, and then come back home. Even sons of kings.

Are you coming to Norway this summer axi? You said something about Greeky men and Norwegian blond Viking girls in another thread.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Lars - You have some points I didn't understand

Originally posted by Lars-E
Fl. c. 480? B.C., Carthaginian navigator. He founded seven towns on the Atlantic shore of Morocco and probably explored the Atlantic coast of Africa to Sierra Leone.

Not to question the valor of this one explorer (and, note that he was but one), there is much difference between travelling by boat in the sight of shore and do it without that safe spot.

Originally posted by Lars-E
So this guy was one of the first to travel the west coast of Africa way down. Arabs must have been travelling the east coast for ever.

Hanno was very early. What we know from history is that the explorers in this region after Hanno were Europeans, first and foremost Portuguese, but they didn't show up until 1400 at the earliest. The 16th century was the period when they had most explorers down there. It was like a race to see who could go furthest down. And at some point there was a cliff/rock formation that was a landmark and noone had passed. Think it was on a river bank in "the corner".

If I read you correctly, you are talking about both the Congo River (sailled by Diogo Cão) and the Cape of Good Hope (near the Cape City in South Africa, nowadays), crossed by Bartolomeu Dias (first), Vasco da Gama (when finnishing the Route to India) and Pedro Alvares Cabral (after oficialy discouvering Brazil), just to name a few.
The Portuguese actually sailed completely around both Western and Eastern Coast of Africa.

Originally posted by Lars-E
The Italian Marco Polo travelled inland to China in the 1300s and one the way back he went partly by ship. Even got to Ceylon (Sri Lanka) IIRC.

Yes but it took too many years and he could not bring that much cargo.
That's why Arabs kept controling the trade, until the Portuguese took over.

Originally posted by Lars-E
Portuguese: Great sailors, not so high ethics..

Now, I have to resent that!!!
What the hell do you mean with that?
Were they less ethical than others?
In which way?

[Provost Harrison]

I would go with the Phoenicians. What the did for the time was damn impressive too, look at how much they colonised/explored compared to the following races, and there is some speculation that they even got to the Americas, but that is speculation.

And an honourable mention to the Vikings and my own nation, who ruled the waves for a damn long time.

[Kaak]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Brits. 3.5 centuries of total naval dominance.

Chinese. Try a millinea of total naval dominance.

[axi]

Mind you I have not voted yet. I am tempted to vote Polynesians though...

I expected to be corrected on many things of course.

The absolute size of the navy does not really count, since some nations are big and some are small but that doesn't make them less worthy. The relative size of the navy does count. As for achievements, they partially depend on funding, so I would consider that the polar achievements of Norway are much more important than those of the USA, due to the difference in size, although in absolute trms they are comparable (of course polar achievements do not have always to do with seafaring)

Referring to the south pole, it was bad phrasing. I should have said Antarctica, since I had in mind captain James Cook.

In all seafaring cultures there seem to be myths about discovering America. Even the Greeks have such a myth. But I guess most of them have nothing to do with reality.

As for other candidate nations, I considered the Dutch, the Japanese and the French but I thought that they haven't done anything really special.

About the Greeks, I have to say that two things make us really special. One is the continuity of our seafaring culture, which goes on for 4-5 thousand years, if one counts the Cycladites and Minoans who were natives and rivals of the Egyptians and the ancestors of the Phoenicians in their time. The alphabet each of these cultures used proves this.
The other thing is the great prowess of the Greeks in pure naval warfare throughout the ages, since they were able to beat any navy they fought with, albeit usually having the odds against them.

I put the Americans in the lot only to please our fellow posters from the other side of the Atlantic (in a graet gesture of good will), and because I really enjoyed reading "Moby ****".

[SlowwHand]

Vikings, for what they did with what they had at the time.





Brits? The voting reflects there are more biased Brits in the forums than Vikings.

[Caligastia]

I cant believe you dont have the Dutch as an option! The Dutch were the first europeans to make it to New Zealand and Australia!

[Jay Bee]

Hmmm.... the first Europeans to make it to Australia were... guess who. Even Ribbanah had to admit it

But its' true, not to have the Dutch as an option up there makes no sense.

My vote goes to the Phoenicians for, as Slowwhand stated, doing what they did with what they had at the time. Second, the Brits, for their 1.5 centuries of total naval dominance.

[Saint Marcus]

Dutch

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
Hmmm.... the first Europeans to make it to Australia were... guess who. Even Ribbanah had to admit it

Abel Tasman was the first european to discover New Zealand and Australia - he was Dutch.

[Urban Ranger]

Com'on boys, play nice. You're all Europeans now.

Why there's no mention of anicent Sea Kings?