World spins on claim China discovered America

[KrazyHorse]

That's highly speculative, Ramo. He set off like a man who had no knowledge other than that the world is round and Asian spices are valuable.

EDIT: It's almost certain, though, that the Chinese managed to land on Australia at some point (perhaps as early as the 12th century). Marco Polo refers to a land known as "Beach" in some of the maps he drew under Chinese consultation.

[Ramo]

A starting point for Menzies' thesis is a 1424 map of Europe and the Atlantic that he says shows Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe nearly 70 years before 1492.

Continental America may have been a portion of the map that was cut off.

Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.

He certainly explored much of the Indian Ocean, from Indonesia to East Africa. I don't think that would be much easier than Portuguese explorers hugging the African coast down to the Cape of Good Hope.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Zheng He's voyages are of great interest, but the most dubious claim here is that he managed to round Cape Horn, perhaps the most dangerous passage on the planet. Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.

KrazyHorse -- you're almost right. European ships even at the same time as these Chinese junks were more maneuverable and were smaller. This allowed European ships to navigate along the coasts of continents easier than Chinese junks, as well as navigate via major rivers.

As for the discovery of the Americas -- we already know that the ancestors of the Amerindians were the first people to discover the American continents and Carribean islands in prehistoric times.

I find it difficult to swallow the Phonecian theory, but I do believe it is possible that Chinese sailors encountered parts of the Pacific coast of the Americas before Columbus. We just have not proven it yet.

As for whose encounter with the Americas had the most decisive, historical impact -- obviously Columbu's encounter had the most impact.

I avoid using the word discovery of the Americas with any group of people after the Amerindians. The Amerindians were the discoverers -- the other people who came to the Americas thousands of years later, merely encountered the continents and its peoples.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ramo
Continental America may have been a portion of the map that was cut off

Again, not impossible. Merely highly speculative, and lacking substantiation.

[Ramo]

Anyways, this discussion is purely academic until this guy reveals his smoking gun to the world.

[KrazyHorse]

Boy, I'd pay to see that!

[mindseye]

Chinese sailing vessels were certainly advanced for their time, but I don't think they can compare with the maneuverability of Euro ships a full century of intense exploration and improvement later.

I'm not sure that's true at all. The largest of the Chinese ships, known as "treasure ships" were undoubtedly not as maneuverable simply due to their size. They were nearly twice as large as the largest clippers, and among the largest sailing ships ever built. Surviving sternposts, shipyard remains, and plentiful documentation substantiate this. But the treasure ships were not "one-offs", they were the end products of a long, highly advanced line of Ming ship design that included technologies such as surface-skimming anti-ship cruise missiles!

The treasure ships were not the only class of vessel in Zheng He's fleets - in fact, only about a dozen of these monsters were built. The fleets included ships of all sizes and types, some approaching the treasure ships in scale. These included warships, water tankers, troop carriers and horse ships. The Chinese had all sorts of ship designs including more speedy, maneuverable coastal defense ships for running down pirate vessels, and even sidewheelers for use on rivers and lakes!

Had it not been for the political changes which occurred in 15th century China, who knows what might have taken place? With vessels and fleets of this size, the possibilities are limitless. Imagine a massive red-sailed missile-armed Chinese fleet appearing off the Thames of Elizabethan England.

One of my students pointed out to me what she said was a telling difference between East and West: when the Zheng He discovered new lands, the Chinese brought tribute and opened trade. When the Europeans discovered new lands, they claimed them as their own and slaughtered the inhabitants.

[Chris 62]

I've heard of these speculations for years, about Zeng he and such, but I doubt he ever made it to the Atlantic.

The problem is that some scholars like this fellow don't take into account the conditions of the seas.

The cape of good hope is a severely dangerous storm and seas zone, it is doubtful Chiese vessals could have survived such a journey, Iberian types barely did.

The other way, around South America is far worse and more dangerous, so circumnavigation is even more unlikely.

Saying that finding pottery is highly dubious way of proving this.

As for the Phoniceans, there wasn't a galley in the Ancient world that could cross the Atlantic, I simply don't believe they ever made it to America.

But then, there is the mystery of the Piri Reis map...

[Fiera]

What's this Piri Reis map mystery, Chris?

[Urban Ranger]

Here's a comment from a Slashdot thread on the same topic:

Before I add my comments, let me just say that I have been studying archaeology for over 6 years, so I feel as if I am qualified to say a little bit about the facts behind this issue and some of the more ridiculous comments I've seen posted about it.

1st, it is well known that multiple cultures "discovered" what has come to be known as America before Columbus did in 1492. First and foremost by far, of course, were the ancestors of the native peoples of America, who appear to have arrived in several waves of migration via the Alaskan land bridge and possibly via maritime travel from Polynesia. There are arguments about exactly how old the earliest sites (including Monte Verdi in South America, and Meadowcroft Rock Shelter in Pennsylvania) are, but most scholars accept them as being at least 10,000 years old and perhaps as old as 25,000 years. This beats anyone else by a long shot.

After this migration, however, the ONLY incontrovertible archaeological evidence we have for precolumbian contact comes from Viking Sites of around 1000 AD, including L'Anse Aux Meadows, which I believe is in Newfoundland.

The only other group that has any kind of solid archaeological claim to precolumbian discovery is the Chinese. Their presence seems to be attested by anchor stones found off the coast of California which closely match those from Chinese ship types which existed before the era of Columbus. There is, however, NO secure precolumbian artifactual evidence from the Chinese. This one's really a tossup, so I'd like to see what Menzies has to say.

Now when it comes to all of these other claims - Egyptians, Subsaharan Africans, Phonecians, Welsh, etc. etc., what we're seeing is a lot of bad scholarship. Most of this can be traced to 19th century racist hyperdiffusional accounts which attempted to explain how monumental architecture and such could have been produced by such "primitive" (or in some accounts sub-human) people as the Native Americans. Most of these centered around the Egyptians, mainly due to superficial similarities between Egyptian Pyramids and Mesoamerican "pyramid" platforms, which in actuality are designed and built in entirely different ways. Furthermore, neither the Egyptians, nor even the Phonecians, who are often supposed to have ferried the Egyptians across the Atlantic, possessed the kind of ship technology which would make regular oceanic voyaging possible. These were unreinforced, open-decked, square-rigged boats with no navigational instruments. We're not talking Spanish Naos or Chinese Junks (or even Viking boats) here.

The rest of the so-called evidence rests on overinterpretation of existing evidence (Olmec heads as evidence of African Contact, St. Brendan's Chronicles as an actual account - yeah, they just ran into Judas Iscariot in Massachussetts), proven hoaxes (Cuneiform tablets in Tennessee), or the psychotic ramblings of UFO cultists like Zecharia Sitchin.

Anyway, despite my little tirade, I don't want to rule out that other civilizations couldhave made it to the Americas. There is just no evidence. So here is how it stands on Precolumbian contact:

North Asians : Yes Vikings : Yes Chinese : Chances are pretty good Egyptians, Phonecians, Africans, Welsh : Highly Doubtful Everyone Else : Who the hell knows?

[MrFun]

If Zeng he discovered parts of the Americas, his fleets probably went the other way -- across the Pacific, not the Atlantic.

[Urban Ranger]

Zheng had made seven voyages and reached the east coast of Africa. So it's not that far fetched that he continued south. Whether he rounded the Cape of Good Hope is unknown to me, however.

[MrFun]

As others have said -- this is mostly speculative.

Just because Zheng he might have rounded the southern tip of Africa, does not mean he went much farther. He might have established temporary contact and trade with that area, and turned back.

But then you can counter-speculate that if he did round the tip of Africa, he went onward, across the Atlantic.

SIGH

[Giant_Squid]

Pah. Twasn't the Phoenicians nor the Chinese nor the Vikings, it was Charles Hapgood's Ancient Sea Kings.
*goes away before anyone asks him to explain*

[Anodyne]

The Mystery of the Piri Reis Map...

Piri Reis was a Turkish sea captain who made a map in 1513 (when Europeans had only mapped small parts of the Americas) that showed the east coast of the Americas... there are some clear mistakes though, like the Amazon river being drawn twice, and ~1500km of the South-American east coast missing. It also seemed that the map showed a part of the coast of Antarctic.

Some (not widely recognized) historians claim that Piri Reis had made the map based on even older maps, that would've dated at least 1000 years beyond... I'm not sure what the common theory about these maps is nowadays, but I think Piri Reis is still quite largely a mystery.