Battle for Palestine

[CyberGnu]

Oh, and take if from a chemist - TNT doesn't explode from rubbing it on the ground. You can even burn it in a logfire without it exploding. Hitting it with a hammer, that might make it go off. And from what I can tell from the pictures, he is in no position to use a hammer on his own waist...


also figured out an easier disarming strategy... Just call in the closest ambulane, give him a sedative and wait until he is unconcsious. Then send in the robot. Since he was according to eyewitness prone on the ground for 30 minutes, a few more wouldn't have hurt...

[Tom201]

I saw the IDF arresting a bunch of pals yesterday on TV. The interesting thing was, that they all were blindfolded. Dont really get it why?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
what's your point?

Ah! Good question

In this instance I'm just joking with you

About the hand cuffs though, it comes from many sources.

[Natan]

You know Cyber, the United States killed Mohammed Atef without trial, and God-willing we'll kill UBL ASAP, even if he hasn't been tried yet. The Palestinians shot that collaborator without a trial. Is every nation other than Sweden ruled by a Hirohito-Stalin coalition?

I frankly can't understand the concern about this guy. Sure, it wasn't right to kill him without trial while he was unarmed. But I think that's really a secondary or tertiary concern at this time. You won't see me complaining if some Jewish guy walks into a Mosque with a bomb or gun and is summarily shot after he is disarmed.

[CyberGnu]

Natan, who is Muhammed Ataf? Is that the high ranking Al-Quida guy who got shot a while ago? Please elaborate.

And I don't think they will kill OBL if they can help it. The US needs to show the arab world that it can be a civilized nation too.



But you are essentially reverting back to the old Israeli defense... 'See, our only ally in the world is doing it too, so it must be alright for us to do it.'

It is not a valid defense. I don't really care how many people the US assassinates, it still doesn;t make it right for Israel. And I would debate the US policy in a separate thread.


Your second line of defense 'see, tha palestinians does it too' is also invalid, for the same reason. Furthermore, the collaborator you talked about was killed by a lynch mob. Not a representative of the goverment. If Arafats guards had killed him, then it would have been equally bad...

I guess the difference is that I wouldn't defend reprehensible actions carried out by arafats goverment, while you seem ready to defend pretty much any atrocity carried out by the Israeli goverment. Do you have a line? Is there ANYTHING the Israeli goverment could do that you wouldn't blindly defend?



You say you can't understand the concern for this guy... Well, as I told Siro, there are two reasons. One ideological, where a civilized nation respects the principle of innocent until proven guilty, and one practical, where this action is counterproductive.

If you are a moral person, you should be horrified for the first reason. If you are logical person, you should be horrified by the second.

[Natan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan, who is Muhammed Ataf? Is that the high ranking Al-Quida guy who got shot a while ago? Please elaborate.

You got it. He was alleged to be Al-Qaida's number 2 man, and we were quite gratified when we managed to kill him in an airstrike.

And I don't think they will kill OBL if they can help it. The US needs to show the arab world that it can be a civilized nation too.

"wanted, dead or alive" suggests to me that a trial before execution is not even necessarily desirable.

But you are essentially reverting back to the old Israeli defense... 'See, our only ally in the world is doing it too, so it must be alright for us to do it.'

It is not a valid defense. I don't really care how many people the US assassinates, it still doesn;t make it right for Israel. And I would debate the US policy in a separate thread.

You were comparing the policy to that of Stalin - if the US is a Stalinist state, then Stalin was a great man.

[CyberGnu]

Natan, are you not aware how far fetched your examples are?

How on earth are you comparing a man who died in an airstrike to a man who got shot in the head while handcuffed?


Wanted dead or alive doesn't necessairy mean kill him before apprehending him. It actually means 'we want him, whether he is dead or alive when you find him'. You have been watching too many western movies.


Two things:
You have so far failed to show how US policy is similar to either Stalin or Israeli policies.

Second: I just told you that it deosn;t matter. I don't care if the U.S. overnight turns into the fourth reich - this has no bearing on the current argument!

Is it really so hard to understand the principle 'someone else doing something wrong doesn't make it right for me'?

Look, most people try this defense when they are about six years old. Most people also grow out of it. I suggest you do likewise.


Care to defend Israels actions some more? You still haven't touched the original issue... Give me one good reason why the Israeli cop should not be sent to jail for the rest of his life, and one good reason to believe that this does not happen when reporters aren;t around to document it...

[Natan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan, are you not aware how far fetched your examples are?

How on earth are you comparing a man who died in an airstrike to a man who got shot in the head while handcuffed?

You were complaining about Israel's assassination policy as well, and that is why I brought up the airstrikes. I'm not defending the shooting of unarmed men.

Wanted dead or alive doesn't necessairy mean kill him before apprehending him. It actually means 'we want him, whether he is dead or alive when you find him'. You have been watching too many western movies.

I think that you have been watching too much of the BBC. The US quite clearly intends to kill Bin Laden when the opportunity presents itself. If he can be captured without risk to US forces, that may be attempted, but I assure you, we will not shrink back from bombing his cave just because he hasn't had a trial yet.

Two things:
You have so far failed to show how US policy is similar to either Stalin or Israeli policies.

I'd say that both engage in airstrikes against terrorist leaders who have not recieved trials, and that contrary to the claim you made, this bears no resemblance to Stalin, Hirohito, etc.

Second: I just told you that it deosn;t matter. I don't care if the U.S. overnight turns into the fourth reich - this has no bearing on the current argument!

It seems self-evident to me that the US bears little or no resemblance to Stalinist Russia as regards the issue of fair trials, etc. When you say that Israel is acting like Stalin for doing what America does, you are saying that America too is acting like Stalinist Russia. I think it's self-evident that such comparisons are invalid.

Care to defend Israels actions some more? You still haven't touched the original issue... Give me one good reason why the Israeli cop should not be sent to jail for the rest of his life

Did I say he shouldn't be?

and one good reason to believe that this does not happen when reporters aren;t around to document it...

Because I'm not aware of a single other instance (besides Bus 300) where police claim to have shot a terrorist where there weren't plenty of witnesses. It's actually rather hard to get away with this sort of thing in this day and age, as the Shin-bet agents responsible for the crimes in the aftermath of the Bus 300 hijacking discovered.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by faded glory
Umm.....those arent soldiers moron. Those are police. Who are you trying to fool?

Thanks for correcting me. I hadn´t noticed that it was not soldiers but police murdering people in full daylight; this is even still worse.

[CyberGnu]

Natan:

You were complaining about Israel's assassination policy as well, and that is why I brought up the airstrikes.

Well, that wasn't evident from your posts...

I'm not defending the shooting of unarmed men.

Oddly enough, this seems to be at complete odds with your previous statement:

I frankly can't understand the concern about this guy. Sure, it wasn't right to kill him without trial while he was unarmed. But I think that's really a secondary or tertiary concern at this time. You won't see me complaining if some Jewish guy walks into a Mosque with a bomb or gun and is summarily shot after he is disarmed.

So, which one is it that you actually adhere to?

I think that you have been watching too much of the BBC. The US quite clearly intends to kill Bin Laden when the opportunity presents itself. If he can be captured without risk to US forces, that may be attempted, but I assure you, we will not shrink back from bombing his cave just because he hasn't had a trial yet.

I must confess - I think I might have been led into the jewish trap. I repsonded to your sophistry without contemplating enough, and consequently wasted my time killing strawmen...

The U.S. has declared a state of war with the Al-quida and the Talibans. The air strikes were carried out as part of this war.

Israel (as well as Stalin), on the other hand, performs assassinations against a people they occupy. You might bleat about how this should be considered a state of war, but the fact is that the Palestinians WANT to have it declared a war... That way they would enjoy protection from the Geneva convention, which is stronger than the UN resolutions... and it is Israel who insists that it is just an administration...

So, for your comparison to have any validity, you would have to show how the U.S. goverment has a policy of assassinating a people they occupy.

Thus, your insistent claims that Israel is just doing what the US does are again doubly flawed.

They are obvisouly absurd, and even if they were true it wouldn't matter.

How about posting about something worthwhile?

Because I'm not aware of a single other instance (besides Bus 300) where police claim to have shot a terrorist where there weren't plenty of witnesses. It's actually rather hard to get away with this sort of thing in this day and age, as the Shin-bet agents responsible for the crimes in the aftermath of the Bus 300 hijacking discovered.

Surprisingly, you again completely failed to get the point... Think about it for a while. You might get it. If you still can't, let me know and I'll try to give you a hint.

[Comrade Tribune]

Last News

The Austrian government has evacuated our journalists *in an armoured car*. This is the only place your life is safe in occupied Palestine: In an armoured car.

The Italians didn´t realize that fast enough. An Italian journalist who didn´t travel in an armoured car has been slaughtered by the IDF with no less than *six* bullets. Hard to explain that as an accident. Perhaps Israel has something against foreign eyewitnesses?

[Bereta_Eder]

The thing that made me topple over frommy chair laughing was that guy in CNN who said: We do not accept international observers. But we do accept CIA observers.




Is it like this in Iraq too?

[Natan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan:



Well, that wasn't evident from your posts...

I think it should be clear when I argue with your analogy that

Oddly enough, this seems to be at complete odds with your previous statement:



So, which one is it that you actually adhere to?

To make the point with the apparently necessary rhetorical sledgehammer, if you'd made a post about parking ticket violations as worse than the Rwandan genocide, I would have had the same reaction. One doesn't have to support a given action to think it recieves disproportionate attention or indignation.

I must confess - I think I might have been led into the jewish trap. I repsonded to your sophistry without contemplating enough, and consequently wasted my time killing strawmen...

The U.S. has declared a state of war with the Al-quida and the Talibans. The air strikes were carried out as part of this war.

It's not a war in any formal sense, since we do not recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government.

Israel (as well as Stalin), on the other hand, performs assassinations against a people they occupy. You might bleat about how this should be considered a state of war, but the fact is that the Palestinians WANT to have it declared a war... That way they would enjoy protection from the Geneva convention, which is stronger than the UN resolutions... and it is Israel who insists that it is just an administration...

Ah, I get it - the assassinations are when America forgets to pretend that a guerilla movement in control of 5% of the area is the government. I don't think semantics make the difference between right and wrong. But you've already said you don't care either way, so I see no reason to belabor the point.

Comrade Tribune: The poor guy was shot with a tank machine gun - AFAIK those usually fire in 6-10 round bursts, they're automatic weapons with a very high rate of fire, many bullets in a second. If Israel wanted to keep foriegn journalists out, it could easily just deny them entry visas.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Natan
If Israel wanted to keep foriegn journalists out, it could easily just deny them entry visas.

This would be much too open and honest. Much better to scare them away and kill some of the bastards in the process.

[faded glory]

Another Israeli Mekava is destroyed bye road side bomb. (Thats one big ass bomb )