Let's end this one and for all ! The Last ME Thread. Permanent solutions only please!

[Tom201]

Originally posted by Eli
There were no massive attacks. Bombing empty buildings and pointless incursions do not count.
Sharon stayed in the middle just like Barak before him.
So Israeli retaliations became stronger, but he didnt offer a solution. At least Barak said he has a goal, and a way to end the violence. Sharon just retaliates in a stronger way to calm down the Israeli public.

Oh come on. U hear of killed palastins every day. 3times more palastins died than Israelis. I doubt they all died from heart atacks while Israel was "bombing empty buildings".

Originally posted by Eli
I can reccomend you some good body bag manufacturers.

So u would support shooting at UN soldiers. And believe Israel Army would win the conflict against the world?

Originally posted by Eli
When did I say I hate Palestinians as a nation?

Your comments and your racist speech (which u consider true) gives some clues about that.

Originally posted by Eli

A free country has equal rights for everyone. Israel has rights for Jewish ppl. only.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong.

A really? I wonder how much rights the palastin workers in Israel have, would u really say they have equal rights compared to Israeli ppl.?

Originally posted by Eli
Ummm.
Are you aware that the police and the soldiers on every edge of the street are there to provide a fast response to shooting teracts, and to frighten potential terrorists from going to public places?

Maybe it isnt a good idea to settle in occupied land to make friends...

Originally posted by Eli
By not replying to some of my points, can I assume that you agreed to them?

- Well I believe that there would be more than some isolated atacks but that is speculative.

- U could say they have large anarchy tendensies already. But I doubt it is a good idea to drive them in total anarchy

- Well Israel is atacking the palastin police so do they

- What actions exactly do u demand to prevent arm smuggling (the ones that will cause huge protests)?

- hm I think that was it


Tom

[Imran Siddiqui]

A lot of good suggestions, but I think the main issue of Jerusalem is the problem. The best solution is to make it an international city under UN control, but no one (and their mother) would go for that plan. So, you'd have to split it, and that is where the problems come in. It must be shared, or else there is no peace. Jerusalem is too important for one group to have complete control.

The end goal is, of course, secular states in Israel and Palestine. I think the UN, if it really wanted to, could shine here. It could show people that the UN wasn't worthless. It can create a viable Palestinian state. It just needs the will to do so.

[Tom201]

Ahja and what I mean with free country is, that there are diffrent degrees of free or not so free.
Like germany is a free country but not as free as the Netherlands (censorship rules, higher violent crime rate, more restrictive laws, etc.). I dont have to be frightend to get killed by some violent crime here, most likly Im gonna die in some car accident maybe.
In Israel like u said u have to avoid large groups of ppl., cose the risk of getting killed in an terror act is much higher there, than when u stay at home. Preventing u from having a normal live, or have to live with the risk and u get remindet of it from every soldier u see on the street.
U also have to live with the fact that u get controlled constantly if u are not some terrorist (less privacy).
Than is Israel much of an religios country. With nearly all ppl. believing in the same Religion and being very strict about it (compared to europe christians), that makes individuallism much harder than in a country with lot of diffrent groups.

Therefore the freedom in Israel is much lower than in Europe Countrys.


Tom

[Eli]

Originally posted by Tom201


Oh come on. U hear of killed palastins every day. 3times more palastins died than Israelis. I doubt they all died from heart atacks while Israel was "bombing empty buildings".

The majority of the Pals died in clashes with IDF soldiers.
Another big part came from gunfire exchanges during Israeli incursions.
Since the Pals evacuate their facilities after teracts, most of the time only few people get injured in Israeli bombings.

So u would support shooting at UN soldiers.

If they come to force a policy on a democratically elected goverment. Yes.

And believe Israel Army would win the conflict against the world?

I dont believe that such conflict will ever happen.
Maybe if Israeli implements the Transfer policy, but that wont happen.

Your comments and your racist speech (which u consider true) gives some clues about that.

A) When was I talking about "races".
B) Prove that I was wrong.

A really? I wonder how much rights the palastin workers in Israel have, would u really say they have equal rights compared to Israeli ppl.?

So suddenly you change terminology, eh?
From Jews and Arabs, to Israelis and Palestinian workers.
Jews and Arabs, citizens of Israel have the same rights. Jews have more obligations, like compulsory military service.

Palestinian workers are not Israeli citizens.

Maybe it isnt a good idea to settle in occupied land to make friends...

Maybe. But you're going off-topic.
You claimed that Israel is a police state because there are soldiers and policemen on every corner. I refuted the argument reminding you that these people are there to stop or thwart potential attacks. You, without any connection to the discussion attack the Israeli policy.
So either admit that your claim was wrong, or refute my argument.

- Well I believe that there would be more than some isolated atacks but that is speculative.

Jordan and Egypt have no interest in a conflict with Israel. Syria will not dare to do a thing because of the pathetic condition of their Army, which leaves us with the Hizballah. And the Hizballah is already slowly warming up the border(nothing really significant, so you wont get this on CNN).

- U could say they have large anarchy tendensies already. But I doubt it is a good idea to drive them in total anarchy

My point is that we shouldn't afraid of it because it's already happening(though partially). So this shouldn't be the issue preventing us from taking the military action I reccoment on.

- Well Israel is atacking the palastin police so do they

OK. So they are part of the fight, and we have the right to retaliate against them.

- What actions exactly do u demand to prevent arm smuggling (the ones that will cause huge protests)?

There is plenty of arms smuggling going on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. Mainly through underground tunnels.
The problem is that there is a Pal city there, Rafah. And the Israeli soldiers who try to demolish those tunnells are constantly under fire(this is the most active spot in this Intifada). So demolishing some neighborhoods(mostly empty because of the fighting) will be necessary.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Tom201
Ahja and what I mean with free country is, that there are diffrent degrees of free or not so free.
Like germany is a free country but not as free as the Netherlands (censorship rules, higher violent crime rate, more restrictive laws, etc.). I dont have to be frightend to get killed by some violent crime here, most likly Im gonna die in some car accident maybe.
In Israel like u said u have to avoid large groups of ppl., cose the risk of getting killed in an terror act is much higher there, than when u stay at home. Preventing u from having a normal live, or have to live with the risk and u get remindet of it from every soldier u see on the street.
U also have to live with the fact that u get controlled constantly if u are not some terrorist (less privacy).
Than is Israel much of an religios country. With nearly all ppl. believing in the same Religion and being very strict about it (compared to europe christians), that makes individuallism much harder than in a country with lot of diffrent groups.

Therefore the freedom in Israel is much lower than in Europe Countrys.

This is correct, except some points here and there. But what's your point?

[faded glory]

Oohh look mommy! another ME thread!



My solution,

Give west bank and Gaza back to Eygpt and Jordan. Israel builds a fence around Westbank and Gaza, lets no one in. Let Eygpt and Jordan make peace. See if Hamas attack's there arab brothers.


To sweeten the pot, Ide increase USA/EU aid to Israel, Eygpt, and Jordan.

[Tom201]

Originally posted by Eli

So u would support shooting at UN soldiers.

If they come to force a policy on a democratically elected goverment. Yes.

If some country is wrong with what they are doing it doesnt matter if they are democratic or not to send UN soldiers. If for example the US is going to kill all black ppl. cause they do too much crime. Their government would be still democratically elected. But I would support the UN to do something about it (In the US case it would of course be a bit though, u cant send UN soldiers to a worldpower...)

Originally posted by Eli
A) When was I talking about "races".

Well u atack the Palastins. A racist is someone who atack a certain group of ppl. chosen by race, religion, nationalty or what ever.

Originally posted by Eli
Palestinian workers are not Israeli citizens.

Well in other countrys foreign workers get treated much better than palastin workers in israel.

Originally posted by Eli
Maybe. But you're going off-topic.
You claimed that Israel is a police state because there are soldiers and policemen on every corner. I refuted the argument reminding you that these people are there to stop or thwart potential attacks. You, without any connection to the discussion attack the Israeli policy.
So either admit that your claim was wrong, or refute my argument.

The Police and Military in Israel has much more rights in Israel than in other Countrys. Again it is a question of degree if some state is Policestate or not. Israel has a very strong Police/Military presence (the reason is not important for the question if this is a Policestate or not). U can of course argue about the term "Policestate" but it is infact much more of a Policestate than any European country.

Originally posted by Eli
This is correct, except some points here and there. But what's your point?

My point was that I said u should visit some free country. U said u dont need cose u already live in one. My point is that u live in country with a much lower degree of freedom than european countrys. Therefore u could learn something new by visiting some

[Eli]

Originally posted by Tom201


If some country is wrong with what they are doing it doesnt matter if they are democratic or not to send UN soldiers. If for example the US is going to kill all black ppl. cause they do too much crime. Their government would be still democratically elected. But I would support the UN to do something about it (In the US case it would of course be a bit though, u cant send UN soldiers to a worldpower...)

I agree.
But this country will have the full right to fight back.

Well u atack the Palastins. A racist is someone who atack a certain group of ppl. chosen by race, religion, nationalty or what ever.

Racist statement - Jews want to take over the world's economic apparatus.
Non racist statement - The percent of Jews in the errr... how do I say it in English... "economy field" is disproprtionate(sp?) to their percent in the population.

Racist statement - Afghanis are crazy religious murderous fanatics.
Non racist statement - Afghanistan is a fundamentalist country.

Racist statement - Palestinians are primitive blood thirsty murderers.
Non racist statement - The Pal society is a primitive society - [insert here 10 specific and general examples].

Racist statement - The Israeli Jews are religious lunatics.
Non racist statement - "Than is Israel much of an religios country" - Tom201.

Well in other countrys foreign workers get treated much better than palastin workers in israel.

Maybe, maybe not. I'll need a proof.

The Police and Military in Israel has much more rights in Israel than in other Countrys.
Again it is a question of degree if some state is Policestate or not. Israel has a very strong Police/Military presence (the reason is not important for the question if this is a Policestate or not). U can of course argue about the term "Policestate" but it is infact much more of a Policestate than any European country.

dictionary.com says :
police state
n.
A state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.

According to this definition, Israel is a police state just like the Netherlands.

My point was that I said u should visit some free country. U said u dont need cose u already live in one. My point is that u live in country with a much lower degree of freedom than european countrys. Therefore u could learn something new by visiting some

Maybe you should visit Israel to understand that there is no difference. Full stop.

[Tom201]

Originally posted by Eli
I agree.
But this country will have the full right to fight back.

Well they will fight back, but if this is morally justified is another question...

Originally posted by Eli
Racist statement - Jews want to take over the world's economic apparatus.
Non racist statement - The percent of Jews in the errr... how do I say it in English... "economy field" is disproprtionate(sp?) to their percent in the population.

Racist statement - Afghanis are crazy religious murderous fanatics.
Non racist statement - Afghanistan is a fundamentalist country.

Racist statement - Palestinians are primitive blood thirsty murderers.
Non racist statement - The Pal society is a primitive society - [insert here 10 specific and general examples].

Racist statement - The Israeli Jews are religious lunatics.
Non racist statement - "Than is Israel much of an religios country" - Tom201.

Ok, than it was not a racist statement, but it had tendensies

Originally posted by Eli
Maybe, maybe not. I'll need a proof.

Turkish foreign workers in Germany. They lived for long time already in Germany, now they have the opertunity to get a german passport and all rights germans have. There are some problems with this group but they are very minor compared to Israel.

Originally posted by Eli
dictionary.com says :
police state
n.
A state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.

According to this definition, Israel is a police state just like the Netherlands.

I admit u are right, Israel is than no Policestate. It is a state with overproportional Police/Military Presence and rights.

Originally posted by Eli
Maybe you should visit Israel to understand that there is no difference. Full stop.

Hm first u agree that Israel has a lower degree of freedom, now u say there is no diffrence.

My point is that u get in some country like israel easier a radical point of view than here. If I would live in Israel I maybe would agree with u more than now from the distance.
I mean it is very common here to see mixed arab./non arab groups walking along the street (I dont think that happens often in Israel). Or u see happy arab. ppl. that smile and so on. Not like on Israel TV radical Palastins who fire weapons and cry for revenge.
U just get a diffrent point of view of things depending on what your everyday experience is.
If u would have lived in Netherlands than go to Israel and sometimes visiting back in Holland. I think u would be more likly to seek some more human solution than your military idea.
Of course u mainly care about Israel, but try to see it in a palastin point of view. Say u are a nonradical, israel friendly palastin who wants to stop the violence. Would u apriciate your military solution?

[Eli]

Originally posted by Tom201

Well they will fight back, but if this is morally justified is another question...

Fighting back is always morally justified.

Ok, than it was not a racist statement, but it had tendensies

I admit.
Talking about a certain "society" in general is very close to racism.

Turkish foreign workers in Germany. They lived for long time already in Germany, now they have the opertunity to get a german passport and all rights germans have. There are some problems with this group but they are very minor compared to Israel.

The Pal workers dont live in Israel. They come everyday from the territories. So these are two different situations.

I admit u are right, Israel is than no Policestate. It is a state with overproportional Police/Military Presence and rights.

I'm not sure about the rights.
As for presence, yes. Every Jew is obliged(though many find a way to avoid it) to 3(2 if you're female) years of military service. And a certain period of reserve service every year.

Hm first u agree that Israel has a lower degree of freedom, now u say there is no diffrence.

I was thinking about laws like light drugs legalization.

My point is that u get in some country like israel easier a radical point of view than here. If I would live in Israel I maybe would agree with u more than now from the distance.

Correct.

I mean it is very common here to see mixed arab./non arab groups walking along the street (I dont think that happens often in Israel). Or u see happy arab. ppl. that smile and so on. Not like on Israel TV radical Palastins who fire weapons and cry for revenge.

A) This is what hostility leads to. But I see no connection to freedom.
B) And I saw on TV a gay parade in Amsterdam, that doesnt means all Dutch are gays.

U just get a diffrent point of view of thing depending what your everyday experience is.

Correct, but I still see no connection to freedom.

If u would have lived in Netherlands than go to Israel and sometimes visiting back in Holland. I think u would be more likly to seek some more human solution than your military idea.

Yes. And I would've been wrong.
Someone who doesnt experience the problem cannot truly understand or solve it.
It's the small things that affect you. Not some big teract that killed 20 children, but things like the need to open your bag before entering malls and other public places, or more exposure to Palestinian incitement.
This is correct also for the Pal side, with the need to spend hours of waiting in roadblocks and other examples.

Of course u mainly care about Isreal, but try to see it of a palastin point of view. Say u are a nonradical, israel friendly palastin who wants to stop the violence. Would u apriciate your military solution?

No.
But can he do something to prevent me from doing so?
Can he and others like him demonstrate against the PA policy, or affect it in some way?

[faded glory]

Originally posted by faded glory
Oohh look mommy! another ME thread!



My solution,

Give west bank and Gaza back to Eygpt and Jordan. Israel builds a fence around Westbank and Gaza, lets no one in. Let Eygpt and Jordan make peace. See if Hamas attack's there arab brothers.


To sweeten the pot, Ide increase USA/EU aid to Israel, Eygpt, and Jordan.

ooohh...this could work. if only sharon played civ!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

There's no solution to this problem that's going to be fair, just, and/or looked upon kindly by history. So I think we have to proceed that solving the problem is going to require something very unpleasant for somebody (kind of like my uncle having to have his legs amputated to control his diabetes; it worked, but nobody looked at the solution and thought, "excellent"). With that in mind, two propositions:

1) Any parent knows that when kids can't play nice with a toy, you take the toy away. So any permanent solution should involve the internationalization of Jerusalem; nobody gets it, and it becomes a free international city governed by the UN -- which, for good measure, relocates there. Since it will then belong to all nations, any subsequent attack on Jerusalem by anybody will be, by definition, an attack on the rest of the world.

2) Beyond that, though, the only solution I have is one I don't like myself. It stems from my best friend's exasperated cry, "But there already is a Palestinian state! It's called 'Jordan.' " My very reluctant proposal (versions of which have already shown up) is the forced removal of Palestinians to Jordan, to be presided over by the UN (to keep it from being a Trail of Tears/Armenian Genocide) and paid for by Israel. No, it's not "fair," but, again, I doubt any actual solution could be. As for the claim that the West Bank doesn't belong to Israel...hey, somebody should have thought of that before they attacked Israel and got their asses kicked. Besides, the Jordan is a much more logical border between the two nations.

[Az]

talking to yourself , FG ?

[orange]

Combine Israel with Palestinian holdings. Call the new state "Palestine". Define borders with Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan. Secular state, secular education. Distribute wealth. Democratic government. Everything is common to the state.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
talking to yourself , FG ?

ya, only cause I think my idea is the only solution to this problem.