US Unilateralism & extra-territorial law: A sign of weakness?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by el freako

As it is very difficult to objectively measure the 'effort' put into an economy we will probably have to rely on the 'results' that come out of it, and these show that Europe's average incomes are consistantly growing faster than America's.

As I already said, EU's average got jacked up by those poor, almost third-world like member countries. It is expected that when this kind of countries grow, they grow by a much faster rate. A more viable comparison would be numbers from Germany, France, Benelux, and UK.

You have not answered how EU is going to solve the problems regarding the population loss and integration of immigrants.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Roland

And Transcend... Boulder, Colorado... working for the PD there, hmm ?

No.

It seems that Europeans such as you are super confident about your countries' abilities. Fine. Chinese were also pretty confident before the Opium Wars. I just hope you guys don't fall so hard on noses in 50 years, because I happen to like and respect Europe a lot. I only hate its socialist policies and their corrosive effects on work ethics.

[Roland]

The problem I have with such metrics is that "1 patent" is a formalised thing. It's a file, essentially. The hobby inventor and the BIG HUGE COMPANY can each have one patent, even if the first cost some hours sparetime, and the second 1 billion cash. Inventions can be split into several patents or filed under 1 (at least here - assume it's similar with US patents).

Same thing with articles. As soon as universities use such metrics esp for budgetting, the nr of articles explodes - while there is hardly more knowledge "produced".

"The US patent system seems to show otherwise, however."

How do they count international applications under the Patent Cooperation Treaty ? As also "filed" in the US ?

At the EPO, US filings account for 28 %.

"Btw, Rambus technology is used in the best memory available at a reasonable price."

Well, if it IS rambus tech...

"Anyway, what's so bad about growing the pie and having others innovate? They can pick up their fair share of the work for once. "

Nothing. You could also tone down the arrogance.

[Roland]

Transcend:

"It seems that Europeans such as you are super confident about your countries' abilities."

That's always relative, and I'm only super confident with people who don't know what they are talking about. "socialist policies and their corrosive effects on work ethics" - care to tell me which austrian socialist policies you'd do away with ?

[DanS]

"You could also tone down the arrogance."

No thanks. Everyone should compensate us additionally for the freeloading that they do off of our innovation. Wait until China and India receive the bill! Slackers...

Re the patents, the effectiveness of the U.S. patents seems at least on par with other countries, so I think we can pretty much take the stats for what they are worth.



Anyway, again, how all of this translates into national power isn't at all clear.

edit: France's enforced 35-hour work week is a prime example of what Transcend is saying.

[Roland]

"Everyone should compensate us additionally for the freeloading that they do off of our innovation."

Who's freeloading ?

Not to mention all the german patents you stole in WWII.

"France's enforced 35-hour work week is a prime example of what Transcend is saying."

Really ? How exactly is it "enforced" ?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Roland
Transcend:

"It seems that Europeans such as you are super confident about your countries' abilities."

That's always relative, and I'm only super confident with people who don't know what they are talking about. "socialist policies and their corrosive effects on work ethics" - care to tell me which austrian socialist policies you'd do away with ?

At least for Germany:
1. Reduce government involvement in business and education. Government bureaucracies are chronically inefficient and would finance their inefficiencies by just adding more taxes.

2. Lower taxes, especially for new business startups. That will in turn create jobs and make multinationals more interested to stay in the country.

3. Reduce welfare, nobody should ever get unlimited welfare support. You don't want to any substantial percentage of your population to "bread and circus" folks.

4. Reign in the power of the labor unions. Instead of protecting worker's rights. These monstrous bureaucracies have mutated to the point where they are trashing businesses and keeping slackers/morons/losers on the job.

[Roland]

So now the issue is just german "socialism" ?

"1. Reduce government involvement in business and education."

Way too broad. What business, what involvement ? Same for edu.

"2. Lower taxes, especially for new business startups."

What's wrong with the current rates, esp when considering the tax base ?

"3. Reduce welfare, nobody should ever get unlimited welfare support."

If we're talking about Arbeitslosenhilfe here, I agree.

"4. Reign in the power of the labor unions. Instead of protecting worker's rights. These monstrous bureaucracies have mutated to the point where they are trashing businesses and keeping slackers/morons/losers on the job."

You are confusing them with US labour unions. German ones are quite different. The only problem is with the Flächentarifvertrag, but that's a quite specific one....

[Transcend]

Roland, I'm not a policy maker so I won't go into gory details. I only brought up Germany because that's country I had lived in for many years. I don't the details about Austria so I refrain from commenting too much about it. You should know how different Austria is from Germany.

Speaking of taxes, let me ask you a question: do you think the government can spend money more efficiently than individuals and businesses? If yes, then we are from 2 different worlds and there is nothing more to talk about. If no, then you must be able to see the point that government should only spend money on tasks that cannot be done by individuals and businesses.

I fail to see why German or any other POWERFUL labor unions would behave any differently than US ones. Maybe you can explain the difference?

[el freako]

Originally posted by Transcend

As I already said, EU's average got jacked up by those poor, almost third-world like member countries. It is expected that when this kind of countries grow, they grow by a much faster rate. A more viable comparison would be numbers from Germany, France, Benelux, and UK.

Well I could make the counter argument that the Southern States have jacked up the US growth rate as they have also converged on the US's average Income.

But just looking at your selected few...

Trend-Adjusted GDP per head as % of USA in 1990 and 2000:

Germany: 69%, 76%
France: 76%, 72%
Netherlands: 70%, 80%
Belgium: 70%, 76%
Luxembourg*: 104%, 135%
United Kingdom: 68%, 72%

*this is the actual figure as the OECD does not publish trend data for Luxembourg

As you can see only France saw a relative fall in their income (in the EU only Sweden suffered the same fate) compared to the US.

As far as immigration and the birth rate is concerned, well if nothing changes then there will be a large fall in populations in several countries.
However this has been forecast before, in the late 1970's it was predicted that our population would be falling now, instead it is growing by nearly 1m a year.

[Roland]

"do you think the government can spend money more efficiently than individuals and businesses?"

Of course not, with the possible odd exceptions (freerider problems etc).

"If no, then you must be able to see the point that government should only spend money on tasks that cannot be done by individuals and businesses."

Fine. Now how is this related to why europe be more "socialist" than the US ?

"I fail to see why German or any other POWERFUL labor unions would behave any differently than US ones. Maybe you can explain the difference?"

First, different tradition. German labour movement vs US guild tradition. US unions are parasitic little ****makers - this is a bit difficult in Germany where eg closed-shop is illegal, collective bargaining agreements have outsider effect, and employers have their employer "union" - aka Arbeitgeberverband. The whole labour relations framework is completely different, and to compare those unions across the pond is like comparing pineapples and cherries.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Roland
"do you think the government can spend money more efficiently than individuals and businesses?"

Of course not, with the possible odd exceptions (freerider problems etc).

"If no, then you must be able to see the point that government should only spend money on tasks that cannot be done by individuals and businesses."

Fine. Now how is this related to why europe be more "socialist" than the US ?

Because most European governments need those high tax rates to pay for their outrageously generous welfares. You already agreed that welfare is too much in Europe and individuals and businesses can spend money more wisely. So, then what's wrong with European governments lowering some of their commitments and reduce the taxes?

"I fail to see why German or any other POWERFUL labor unions would behave any differently than US ones. Maybe you can explain the difference?"

First, different tradition. German labour movement vs US guild tradition. US unions are parasitic little ****makers - this is a bit difficult in Germany where eg closed-shop is illegal, collective bargaining agreements have outsider effect, and employers have their employer "union" - aka Arbeitgeberverband. The whole labour relations framework is completely different, and to compare those unions across the pond is like comparing pineapples and cherries.

OK, German Labor Unions may be more responsible than their American counterparts. What about the British, French, or Italian ones? It seems that French are on strikes continously.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by el freako


Well I could make the counter argument that the Southern States have jacked up the US growth rate as they have also converged on the US's average Income.

But just looking at your selected few...

Trend-Adjusted GDP per head as % of USA in 1990 and 2000:

Germany: 69%, 76%
France: 76%, 72%
Netherlands: 70%, 80%
Belgium: 70%, 76%
Luxembourg*: 104%, 135%
United Kingdom: 68%, 72%

*this is the actual figure as the OECD does not publish trend data for Luxembourg

As you can see only France saw a relative fall in their income (in the EU only Sweden suffered the same fate) compared to the US.

Ok, I concede in this point. I think Germany got the bump because the eastern part is rapidly catching up. But I'm really surprised that Netherland made such a big gain, and that even most EU countries have such low GDP per person compared to the US.

As far as immigration and the birth rate is concerned, well if nothing changes then there will be a large fall in populations in several countries.
However this has been forecast before, in the late 1970's it was predicted that our population would be falling now, instead it is growing by nearly 1m a year.

Your population is not falling because of the immigration. As I already pointed out, you need to integrate immigrants to avoid social conflicts and maintain current productivity. El, do you think your country is doing a good job at integrating immigrants?

[Saint Marcus]

But I'm really surprised that Netherland made such a big gain

You're kidding right?

Holland was one of Europe's fastests growing economies in the last years.

and that even most EU countries have such low GDP per person compared to the US.

Not really surprising. But GDP per capita says little about the actual quality of life in various countries.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Transcend
I think Germany got the bump because the eastern part is rapidly catching up. But I'm really surprised that Netherland made such a big gain, and that even most EU countries have such low GDP per person compared to the US.

The Netherlands has made impressive gains in getting a greater proportion of it's people into the workforce - in 1990-2000 the workforce went from 58% of the population aged 15-64 to 66% (by comparison the figure for the US actually fell from 76% to 75%).

As is to be expected the poorer nations of the EU did best.

Trend-Adjusted GDP per head as % of USA in 1990 and 2000:

Spain: 52%, 60%
Ireland: 50%, 81%
Portugal: 41%, 52%
Greece: 41%, 50%

EU-15: 67%, 72%

Originally posted by Transcend
Your population is not falling because of the immigration. As I already pointed out, you need to integrate immigrants to avoid social conflicts and maintain current productivity. El, do you think your country is doing a good job at integrating immigrants?

Well the 'natural rate' of population growth (that's births less deaths) is still positive in the EU, it's just very low (around 0.1% a year).
As for my country (the UK) then I think that immigrants are being integrated fairly well - whereas we have integrated our blacks far better than the US has we seem to integrate Muslim south asians about as poorly as those blacks are in the US.