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US Unilateralism & extra-territorial law: A sign of weakness?

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  • #61
    Roland: The PDF lists number of patents granted. The Council on Competitiveness lists the number of patents filed.

    The trickier part of figuring this stuff out is the actual innovation in industry. Here, the US is stronger in some areas than others. According to Rohm & Haas, for instance, about 45% of all "global" drug discoveries happen in the US. Europe might be stronger on chemicals, even though these industries are similar in some respects.

    paiktis: You're missing the point. European companies can and do file useless software patents in the US, just as do American and Japanese companies. Europe's overall share is still a useful metric, and the US share says basically that the US is treading water on a comparitive basis, not growing rapidly as some suggest.
    Last edited by DanS; March 13, 2002, 12:43.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #62
      well I only had time to read the chart and I responded instinctively

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      • #63
        DanS's information just confirmed one thing: Europe is on the decline, not the US. European socialism is killing off the creativity and innovation of its people. Why should people work their butt off and strive for excellence if doesn't make much difference anyway? Furthermore, most of your countries are going to lose up to 25% of your native population in next 50 years, and yet you are unable to attract high-skilled immigrants and integrate them into the society.

        America, on the other hand, is continuing to attract high-skilled immigrants. All the best scientists and engineers in the world flock to the US. Just ask the Chinese, Indian, or Russian governments how pissed they are about the loss of their best people to the US. Even if those immigrants decide to return to their home countries, they often obtain important functions there and are most likely friendly to America.

        I find it hilarious that Europeans still think themselves able to overtake the US.

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        • #64
          "Europe is on the decline, not the US."

          It's a whole lot more complicated than that. Innovation is very expensive and even if successful might not be worth much on the whole. Europe could freeload off of US innovation, and still close the gap on other measures, such as per capita GDP--Europe appears to be doing just that, according to the trend line. Indeed, a very profitable niche for Europe could be to evaluate all of US innovation and only implement those areas that seem worthwhile.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • #65
            Originally posted by DanS
            "Europe is on the decline, not the US."

            It's a whole lot more complicated than that. Innovation is very expensive and even if successful might not be worth much on the whole. Europe could freeload off of US innovation, and still close the gap on other measures, such as per capita GDP--Europe appears to be doing just that, according to the trend line. Indeed, a very profitable niche for Europe could be to evaluate all of US innovation and only implement those areas that seem worthwhile.
            You mean stealing inventions? I don't think high-tech inventions are that easy to steal. Otherwise, they would have duplicated the Intel VLSI process long time ago, wouldn't they? Also, the best ideas do not come from multi-national dinosaurs, but from nimble small start-ups, something easily killed off by European socialism.

            As for GDP growth, all top EU countries(Germany, France, UK) have a slower growth rate than the US. But the overall EU average got boosted by their poorer members who were just a little bit better off than third world countries.

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            • #66
              "You mean stealing inventions? I don't think high-tech inventions are that easy to steal."

              No, I mean reverse engineer, a staple of all countries' industry. Intel is a special case due to the fact that it's an incredibly capital intensive industry. Even if you were to reverse engineer Intel's stuff, you would have to build a chip plant at over billions of dollars a pop.

              "As for GDP growth, all top EU countries(Germany, France, UK) have a slower growth rate than the US."

              Even if true (and ef will tell you why it isn't), the US is adding population at a pretty huge clip, so the per capita GDP is converging.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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              • #67
                Originally posted by DanS
                "You mean stealing inventions? I don't think high-tech inventions are that easy to steal."

                No, I mean reverse engineer, a staple of all countries' industry. Intel is a special case due to the fact that it's an incredibly capital intensive industry. Even if you were to reverse engineer Intel's stuff, you would have to build a chip plant at over billions of dollars a pop.

                "As for GDP growth, all top EU countries(Germany, France, UK) have a slower growth rate than the US."

                Even if true (and ef will tell you why it isn't), the US is adding population at a pretty huge clip, so the per capita GDP is converging.
                Don't underestimate the difficulties of reverse-engineering. As the technology gets more complex, so does the time and resource required to do the reverse-engineering. It's specially true in fields of integrated circuits, software, and computing where a piece of existing product is next to useless for reverse-engineering.

                Also, lawyers everywhere are making sure that you can't just copy anything you want. Even Chinese are beginning to feel their heat.

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                • #68
                  Transcend,

                  I think the point DanS is making is that Europe is at least as good as the US in applying new ideas, even if it isn't as good at actually thinking them up.

                  Europe has usually been like this in history - the things that made Europe dominant during 1600-1900 were all thought up elsewhere (gunpowder, the compass, printing etc).
                  The difference was that Europe applied them better.

                  Even with the industrial revoultion, most of the best inventions that got it started were made in France - however it was Britian that applied them.


                  A good example is that if Europe applies IT 1 year behind the US then it can usually save 30-40% (according to moore's law) and whilst the US may benefit from a 12 month lead in technology it's probably counteracted by the extra costs.
                  19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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                  • #69
                    El,

                    Past performance doesn't guarantee future success. The reason why Europe became so dominant for 2 centuries was because it had the most sophiscated political and economic systems, and the most competitive societies in the world. Can you say the same about today's Europe?

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                    • #70
                      I dunno, how would you objectively measure a 'competitive society'?

                      It is interesting to note that America's average income has grown slower than Europe's in every decade since the second world war.
                      19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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                      • #71
                        Competitive society? If you slack off all the time and still get paid the same as someone who works his butt off, that's not competitive.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Transcend
                          Competitive society? If you slack off all the time and still get paid the same as someone who works his butt off, that's not competitive.
                          What is the difference between the US and EU here?
                          I mean does the US have a higher proportion of people paid by piecework as opposed to hourly rates?

                          And what makes you think that Europe has a higher proportion of 'slackers' in it's workforce than the US does?
                          More to the point how on earth could you objectively measure it?

                          As it is very difficult to objectively measure the 'effort' put into an economy we will probably have to rely on the 'results' that come out of it, and these show that Europe's average incomes are consistantly growing faster than America's.
                          19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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                          • #73
                            Transcend: Don't get me wrong. I like a vibrant society that innovates and works hard. I wouldn't have it any other way.

                            However, don't oversell the strengths of this approach for the economy or even national strength broadly construed. China is doing squat for innovation by just about any objective measure, but is growing at about 7% per annum. Japan is playing above its weight innovation-wise, but its economy has been getting its butt kicked for the last decade or so.

                            I am doubtful that anybody could have a higher per capita GDP than the US without besting us in innovation for a couple of decades, but Europe isn't losing out on too much by shooting for 85% of the US (or whatever it is they're shooting for). They can be quite comfortable in a constructively lazy posture.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                            • #74
                              About patents.... US companies file a lot of patents in Europe, too. So either they have soooo much more to patent, or their legal department or outsourced legal service is just more active, or they see potential for frivolous lawsuits. As Rambus shows, you can build a "business" around that.

                              If we take R&D spending as % of GDP, the US was at 2.75 % or so (may well go to 2.5 % now that the tech bubble has mostly popped), the EU at close to to 2 %, and Japan in the 2.5 % range. In absolute numbers, that's 275 billion $ US, 200 billion EU, and maybe 75 billion Japan. So if "IT patents filed in US" is the benchmark, Japan has the most efficient reasearch spending of the three by far. 32:275, 6:200, 25:75... Ah yes, seen that NEC spot ?

                              When "about 45% of all "global" drug discoveries happen in the US", what is the EU's share ? Japan isn't that big in pharma, so it should be in the 30-40 % range, or ?

                              And Transcend... Boulder, Colorado... working for the PD there, hmm ?

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                              • #75
                                The metric I propose is the share of patents granted, not filed, even though they seem to track pretty closely. I would imagine that US companies are filing in Europe to lock in market position in the same proportion as European companies. You would have to say that US companies act differently with regard to patents than their European counterparts. The US patent system seems to show otherwise, however. Btw, Rambus technology is used in the best memory available at a reasonable price.

                                Anyway, we're getting more than a little off track here. My entire point in bringing this up is that the US might still be hitting home runs in everything that we do, but how that translates into The Only Remaining Superpower (R) is not as clear as is stated by some.

                                The reason it's not so clear is because other countries have quite high populations and, as such, have a shorter distance to travel. Even Europe has a pretty short distance to travel before it bests the U.S. on the Civ power charts.

                                Anyway, what's so bad about growing the pie and having others innovate? They can pick up their fair share of the work for once.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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