Spankings

[MrFun]

Just because there was an increase from the 1960's in parents following more loving parenting techniques, does not mean that there was no parallel increase in children within other families who were being disciplined by physical violence.

Is there a source available where there were statistics compiled to show the correlation between the rise of loving parental techniques and the increase of teenage violence, as you seemed to have claimed?

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a reliable statistical source for my claim at this point.

[blackice]

Actually it is being shown that the lack of the father figure is more responsible for bad behaviour than anything else. Second spanking is not abuse or violent unless it reaches those levels...

Children learn well from their respective parents one thing learned by a mild swat is boundries, limits. Conversely one could say then that the children who push other children into swatting them lack this type of limits, boundries.

Crimials it is being shown have chemical inbalances not the mild swat, abuse maybe but not the mild swat...

[blackice]

dp sorry...

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MrFun


Just because there was an increase from the 1960's in parents following more loving parenting techniques, does not mean that there were also an increase in children within other families who were being disciplined by physical violence.

No of course it doesn't

Physical discipline is a loving parenting technique.

Maybe parents who don't use it don't love their children enough

One of our neighbours never hit her kids because she said "they would hate her." Guess what? Now they're grown up and they hate her

[Gibsie]

Yeah, but let's face it, when your children develop some intelligence (it'll happen to hydey one day...) they'll hate you like the rest of us do

[Alexander's Horse]

Actually Nicholas started calling me a "meanie" when I smacked him i.e. "You're a meanie Dad."

Those beautiful brown eyes full of tears, the bottom lip out, God that hurt me

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by MrFun
You don't think that children learn behavior from their parents then??

I agree with you 100% that children learn from their parents, both overtly and covertly, as well as learning from the environments that they are exposed to. I would also add that very little restrains them from exploiting this knowledge to its fullest. I will now expand upon this comment: my wife subscribes to the approach which you are suggesting of not spanking the children, and instead trying to rationalize with them as to what should be done in a certain situation. When she has exhausted every avenue of trying to convince our three children as to the correct thing to do, and it still has not been done, she turns to me for assistance. I then invoke The Voice, the one I use one step before the spankings begin. The problem is typically resolved at this point, otherwise it is escalated one more step.....
Regardless, it is my observation that the children (and not just mine - I observe this behavior in other children as well) are very astute at learning/ probing what they can and cannot do: they understand that my wife will not correct their behavior by physical means. They simply use this to their advantage. They also understand that I will not tolerate this, and they respond accordingly. Is this what leads to juvenile delinquents and adult criminals? Actually, I think to the contrary, it is a lack of discipline which leads to this: if children observe that they can "get away with it" for the cost of sitting thru a "rationalization of what is right", they will graduate to the juvenile level of "getting away with it" for the cost of the intermediate step of "rationalization of what is right" which is typically slaps on the wrists for petty crimes/ hooliganism. This learned/ reinforced behavior then graduates to adulthood where we see true crime attempted perpetrated.
My theory, anyways.
Regardless, a good video to see is "Bill Cosby: Himself". Early '80's fare when he was dealing with his rugrats. The caricatures he gives of his wife are hilarious! Give's a good education of what its like to deal with kids while giving a lot of laughs at the same time.

[Alexander's Horse]

Smacking is a last resort for us. It usually substitutes for a dangerous thing - i.e. if little Johny is putting forks into power points and ignoring repeated verbal warnings its better he suffer a little physical pain and humiliation than get the message through 230 volts of raw power

[blackice]

What propels young kids to commit such cold-hearted acts of violence? To answer this, I reviewed several studies which revealed a link between violent behavior and fatherlessness. For example, public health researchers in Albuquerque, New Mexico studied the social background of elementary schoolchildren involved in violent behavior and found that "compared with matched control students, children who exhibited violent misbehavior in school were eleven times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married."

Father involvement is a powerful influence on the development of children. As Shawn Johnston, forensic psychologist in Sacramento, put it, the bottom line behind these blood-chilling acts is the "fundamental failure to socialize boys at risk. And the research is absolutely clear that the one human being the most capable of curbing the antisocial aggression of a child is his or her biological father."

You will find endless studies coming to the same conclusion Myths you have you love em...
Just one search result:

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=lang_en&newwindow=1&q=Broken+Homes+and+Delinquency&btnG=Google+Search

On top of that you will see many a research concluding that in fact "child abuse" is greater than double "single mothers" homes. Your answers to increase in violence with children can be found there not in spanking. In Canada the antispaking pc'ers have lost the fight...why? because most parents see the results of a mild swat...

Boundaries can be found in other ways rough horse play with Dad and Dad stressing when enough is enough is also a "violent" heh way of taming the screw so to speak.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Okay Einstein. Explain why youth violence exploded precisely when parents started following trendy theories in the sixties about not physically disciplining their children.

Your "all violence is bad" line was a slogan of that period.

There is a world of difference between smacking a child and mugging a pensioner.

Or, as we say in the States, even a dog knows the difference between being kicked and being stumbled over.

I voted for the "I spank my kids" option, though Sophie is quite a while away from being big enough and mature enough to understand a swat on the butt.

You know, my wife was spanked in public and you can bet that she never had to get disciplined twice on any issue! 'Twasn't the pain, it was the humiliation.

[blackice]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Smacking is a last resort for us. It usually substitutes for a dangerous thing - i.e. if little Johny is putting forks into power points and ignoring repeated verbal warnings its better he suffer a little physical pain and humiliation than get the message through 230 volts of raw power

Exactly as with screaming at them which is also abuse unless of course for the same reasoning you have used.

[Alexander's Horse]

You make very good points John. Its true that its more the humiliation which "hurts" more - especially if you smack to make a "noise" rather than hurt, which is the right way imo.

My oldest recently said to me that when I hit him it didn't hurt much - I asked him if he wanted me to hit him harder and he dropped the subject

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Actually Nicholas started calling me a "meanie" when I smacked him i.e. "You're a meanie Dad."

Those beautiful brown eyes full of tears, the bottom lip out, God that hurt me

Q. What does Alexander's Horse tell his son when he comes crying to his daddy with a pair of black eyes?

A. Nothing- he's already told him twice.

[JohnT]

Gibsie, that was quite uncalled for!

[Alexander's Horse]

Its okay John, I love the spanking troll - I have to take the flak - its a small price to pay