Slavery Reparations

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Bizzo
This whole reparations for slavery idea is complete absurdity! And IMO, ANYONE who would supprot such a pursuit is a fool! I never owned a slave. None of my ancestors ever owned slaves. No one alive today ever was a slave. Expecting the American public to pay for something that we never had anything to do with is the ultimate in stupidity. But, just consider the source!

words in Bizzo's "argument" that are emotional and connotative:
1)absurdity
2)fool
3)stupidity

You made a claim without attempting to reinforce it with evidence. I myself am trying to overcome using fallacies in argumentation.

[Bizzo]

*Bizzo says with heavy sarcasm..."Excuse me counselor!!!"*


Well Mr Fun... Since you want to split hairs, I saw an article on 60 minutes last year on the subject. Um...Yeah! I would consider that to be a fact. And BTW, I said in my origional post (if you'd comprehended what you'd read correctly) that those views were my opinion . Hence the grouping of the letters "IMO". Better known as "In My Opinion". And the last time that I checked, while opinoins are better when backed by facts, facts aren't a requisite in forming an opinion. No "fallacies" in my "argumentation".

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yes it is in there...

Corruption of blood is mentioned in Article III, Section 3, in connection with "Attainder of Treason" which was the most common basis for corruption of blood in English legal practice.

It refers to the English laws (now long since abolished) relating to Attainder, in which descendants of the attainted person could not inherit property or other heritable rights, retain those that they had, or pass on property or heritable rights, because they were themselves attainted by acts of their ancestors.

It doesn't apply to property claims, for example, where one party "inherits" property stolen from another - because there was never title to the property, to allow it to be passed on.

[MrFun]

Thanks again Michael.

[MichaeltheGreat]

you're welcome.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

From a strictly legal viewpoint, the reparation claims are pretty pointless. While a Tort case could be pursued to establish the fact that "slavery is wrong" (which we already know), I think it would be incredibly difficult for any modern-day black citizen to prove they qualify for damages in the strict sense. They'd get no more than peppercorn damages- "We're very sorry. Here's your 5 cents."

If you start looking at punitive damages (which seems to be the case here) it stumbles on the fact that no living individual has committed the act requiring punitive action, and that corporate entities are so remote from those times that it would be ludicrous to pursue. Which members of the Chase Manhattan board require the punishment of punitive damages?

Finally, from a purely pragmatic point of view, how can such a divisive act benefit race relations? Ultimately the bill will be footed by ordinary citizens who already agree that slavery has no place in a civilised world, so why should they be punished? There are far better ways of addressing racial issues than this.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by MrFun
Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.

Which is different how? People like me who haven't had a single ancestor who's only involvement with slavery was being serfs in Russia would end up paying. The only money I'd be willing to contribute to this would be a reparations check from Russia for the enslavement of my ancestors.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.

Where do these governments get their money from? Taxes.

Who pays the taxes? Everyone.

You are saying that my tax money should go towards reparations for slavery - something neither me nor my ancestors had anything to do with. Where is the justice in that?

[MrFun]

Let me clarify--instead of allowing descendants of black slaves in the United States to sue wealthy individuals who are descendants of plantation owners, they would be allowed to sue the U.S. government.

Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes. I do not advocate, however, direct suing descendants of wealthy individuals who were plantation owners, or descendants of slave trade merchants.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Compensatory damages or punitive damages?

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrFun
Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes.

Please explain how this is "fair"
Your argument is basically... let's punish everybody, not the people responsible (who are all dead anyway)

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MrFun
Let me clarify--instead of allowing descendants of black slaves in the United States to sue wealthy individuals who are descendants of plantation owners, they would be allowed to sue the U.S. government.

Yes, that means that the money the government would pay through reparations would come from taxes. I do not advocate, however, direct suing descendants of wealthy individuals who were plantation owners, or descendants of slave trade merchants.

So in other words, the "government" can simply increase taxes on everyone, or cut services, or whatever, so that every citizen has their money confiscated (whether they can afford it or not, and regardless of their lack of culpability) to go as a general handout to every member of the black race (what about people of "mixed" ancestry ) who claims they had an ancestor who'd been a slave in the US.

Minimum wage workers at Walmart with families to feed can give money to Johnnie Cochrane, Mike Tyson, O J Simpson, and millions of professional and middle class blacks, because, after all, they too are all victims of an institution which was ended 137 years ago. What amazes me is how you are so wilfully blind to the utter absurdity and injustice of the whole proposition.

[Ramo]

As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income. A similar effect was seen in Europe after the Black Death - those who survived were much better off economically.

But slavers targetted health individuals, rather than epidemics, which had a disproportionate effect on the elderly and weak (with a few exceptions, such as the influenza epidemic of 1918).

So I don't think slavery would beneficially affect the African economies in the long-term.

[MrFun]

The government does not necessarily have to increase taxes. It could refinance its budget. For instance, decreasing financing for military defense, or in other areas where a reasonable deduction is feasible.

Now of course, some of you will exaggerate this point that I have made and claim that I'm arguing we should completely eliminate financing in military defense to pay for slavery reparations through the government. Try not to exaggerate my claims or statements.

[Al B. Sure!]

dont just throw money around... seek poor urban enterpreneurs and give them loans to start up businesses in the poor neighbourhoods to give jobs and vitalize the economy there. Once capital starts flowing around the ghettoes they'll naturally rise up.

As for dealing with the more difficult social porblems, a grass roots movement would need to be undertaken. We need less deadbeat fathers, less lost youths, less gangs... It might seem hard now but people must try to fight against these wrongs and keep their head up. A better economy, however, would eliminate these problems quickly though no doubt.

And I'd just like to add that organizations such as the Freedman's Bureau which is generally thought of as the organization designed to make reparations and help blacks also was charged with aiding poor whites. Don't narrow your ideas, Mr.Fun, to just blacks, some of whom aint even poor. Everyone needs some help.


thanks