Slavery Reparations

[Adam Smith]

Mr. Fun:

I already stated before that a minority of blacks benefitted from the slave trade and from slavery itself.

Actually most of the Blacks who remained in Africa benefitted from slavery. As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income. A similar effect was seen in Europe after the Black Death - those who survived were much better off economically. The real beneficairies here were the slave traders, who gained a valuable productive asset - slaves - that they could sell.

Once in the New World, the primary beneficiaries of slavery were not necessarily the slave owners. The reason is that they had to buy the slaves for an amount roughly equal to the value of the slave labor they expected to get out of them. The real beneficiaries in the New World were the original land owners who sold otherwise unproductive land at a price which reflected what it could produce using slave labor.

You can find much of this in a book entitled Time on the Cross by North and Thomas

[MrFun]

Oh right -- look how well the majority of the starving, ill Africans are living now because of European colonialism and the slave trade.

And besides, for many white people, it's hard for them to overcome their bias in realizing how past slavery can have serious consequences for the present generation of descendants of slaves. A lot of white people are blinded by that bias, simply because their ancestors have not been enslaved in the modern world of the 18th and 19th century.

It's easy for many biased white people to simply say that slavery reparations is bull**** when they have not suffered from the consequences of slavery. I'm white, but I have seemed to overcome that particular bias.

[Kaak]

Basically, slavery prevented blacks from accumulating the same kind of wealth and assets that whites have been able to accumulate through anscestors and descendants.

ummm...I would venture to say that the blacks that were slaves in america, who wouldn't be here without their slavery ancestory, are doing a hell of a lot better than their distant relatives in africa.

[MrFun]

Sigh--why the strawman argument about the IF African-Americans were still stuck in Africa??

The point is this -- in United States (NOT Africa), citizens are entitled to an equal opportunity to improve their lives. Blacks have not had that equal opportunity from colonial times, and with only some exceptions, blacks today, do not have equal opportunities.

[Kaak]

MrFun, if you were as intelligent as you claimed, you would realize that you cannot isolate a situation with a great deal of relavent history. America wasn't just a piece of land that God designated as land of the free. A lot of people had to do a lot of hard work to make it what it is. your statement is either one of ignorance or lack of careful reflection.

[Kaak]

blacks today, do not have equal opportunities.

you're right, they have more opportunities. The NAACP and many other black organizations make sure that Blacks have BLACK specific scholarships, grants, etc. Can you imagine what would happen if such a group did the same for whites and whites only?

I wish nothing more than people would ignore the color of people's skin, and take them for who they are. But SOME black people refuse to let this happen. Some white people do the same. I am not pointing fingers. I just think it is silly that people claim to want one thing, and then act along quite different lines...

[DinoDoc]

Since you expected people to comment on your article MR. Fun, I expect you to comment on mine.

[Adam Smith]

Mr. Fun:

Oh right -- look how well the majority of the starving, ill Africans are living now because of European colonialism and the slave trade.

The discussion is about the slave trade, not European colonialism. You either did not read the post or are trying to duck the issue. Are you claiming that all, or even many, of Africa's current problems are due to the slave trade? What about parts of Africa which have problems but did not have any substantial slave trade?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by MrFun

And here are a few counter-points to the article posted.

1) I already stated before that a minority of blacks benefitted from the slave trade and from slavery itself. That does not mean that the present generation of blacks do not deserve reparations.

2) Blacks played a prominent role in the abolitionist movement: Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, were only two exmaples of black leadership.
*Plus, the underground railroad required the courage from the many blacks who chose to run away from plantations.
*Runaway black slaves forced the issue of slavery onto whites on both sides of the argument over slavery.
*And the successful revolt and independent black republic of Haiti in the early 19th century. Black slaves revolted from French rule, and abolished slavery.
*Black soldiers also fought in the Civil War to help preserve the Union, and to help liberate slaves from southern plantations.

Blacks were not helpless people completely subjected to the whims of white people. Hundreds of thousands of blacks took action in whatever way they thought was feasible.

DinoDoc, those were the previous statements I have already posted before, in response to your article. The author seems to be ignorant of African-American history.

And as for parts of Africa that did not suffer from the effects of the slave trade but still have similiar problems of poverty, famine, and epedemics?? Parts of the world can have similiar problems without coming from the same sources.
I should have stated that the parts of Africa that did suffer from the slave trade partially resulted in the problems they have today.

And Kaak -- whites do not need the same programs as minority groups do, because whites have always politically, socially, and economically dominated the United States. A dominant majority group does not need the equivalent of NAACP and so forth. Without such programs, blacks would be suffering even worse today.

I still stay with my claim that the present generation of blacks are in their current economic situation due to the enslavement of their ancestral generations. And because of that, slavery reparations is a feasible situation. But biased whites will not hear any of it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
DinoDoc, those were the previous statements I have already posted before, in response to your article.

That still doesn't answer most of the points brought forth, especially points One, Two, Four, Five, & Eight - Ten.

[MrFun]

I'm not even sure where to begin to repudiate the points of an author who appears to be ignorant of African-American history.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MrFun
I'm not even sure where to begin to repudiate the points of an author who appears to be ignorant of African-American history.

You might want to actually try looking at the article. Or if you can not get past your prejudices about the article, for the sake of academic honesty on you part just read points 8 & 10. I especially like point 8.

[MrFun]

Re: This should be an adequate response to Mr Fun's article

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too

Seven

The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community.

The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves?

Eight

Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid

Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will?

Thus concludes the cut and paste war.

Point Number Seven Counter-Point

Has there been psychological evidence to indicate that Jews have suffered from receiving reparations from the Holocaust? Has there been psychological evidence that Japanese-Americans have suffered from receiving reparations from having their property and businesses stolen?
In other words -- where is the author's psychological research or evidence?

Point Number Eight Counter-Point

There have been sociologists and economists who argued that welfare does not help people climb out of poverty into the middle class. Rather, it merely helps welfare receipients maintain a low quality of life without completely starving. These same welfare programs are available to everyone who qualifies regardless of race or ethnicity. So welfare programs are not a form of failed restitutions.

[Bosh]

"As some Blacks were carried off to slavery, the ones who stayed behind had better land and more animals and tools to work with, increasing their productivity and income."
Not really, the dislocation of the slave raids and the rapid rise and decline of coast states based on the slave trade countered any benefits from lower population.
Also the fact that Europeans tended to take mostly male slaves from the west coast and the Arabs mostly female slaves from the west coast resulted in quite a bit of wierdness gender-relations rise both the change of the population ratios between the sexes when slavery started an when it ended (read a pretty in-depth article on this a year ago, could try to dig it up if anyone wants specifics).

re: DinoDoc's post. Points 3-5 are valid and are enough to win the debate right there. Its completely ridiculous for someone like me who not only had nothing to do with slavery but had no ancestors at all in America before the Civil War to pay reparations for something neither me not my ancestors had any part in to people who were never slaves. Don't really see how anyone can rationally argue against that.

1-2 are flawed since since the reparations really are only meant to target the American portion of slavery and its pretty clear that the white planter aristocracy was far and away the greatest beneficiary of slavery and their slaves the greatest victims.

for 6 the American's race relations have extremally strong roots in the slave system, as should be fairly obvious...

7 is just junk armchair psychology.

8's pretty much irrelevant since those programs did not address this specific issue

9's fairly ridiculous. Its like saying that a shooting victim should be grateful should be grateful because the person who shot him was kind enough to take the bulletts out.

As for ten, last time I checked us leftists weren't trying to destroy america...

[MrFun]

Zhu -- I would not advocate individual wealthy people being sued for reparations. I would advocate that European, North American, and Middle Eastern governments set up reparation payments from their budgets.