Slavery Reparations

[MrFun]

Why use words such as "bull-****" or "money-grubbers" in your arguments? They are full of connotative meaning, and can be interpreted differently by each individual. Those types of words lack denotative meaning.

[DinoDoc]

Mr. Fun, I really would like an answer to the main question of how and why people 6-7 generations removed from an action have a legitimate claim for damages?

[Imran Siddiqui]

And Imran, aren't you using another strawman argument by arguing for a proposition that people who argue for slave reparations are not even advocating?

No, I'm pointing out a MAJOR flaw in the argument you've made.

Strawman arguments are based on implanting argument claims into another person's argument that is not even part of their claims. They are focusing on slavery reparations in United States for black descendants of black slaves. Form your counter-arguments in that area.

Here's the claim: My parents are from India/Pakistan. They moved here in the 1970s. WHY should they have to pay? Why should immigrants who came over after the Civil War.

WHY should poor whites pay? What argument is there for slave reperations, and please don't deflect the question by saying it is a strawman argument.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MrFun
Why use words such as "bull-****" or "money-grubbers" in your arguments? They are full of connotative meaning, and can be interpreted differently by each individual. Those types of words lack denotative meaning.

There is nothing to denote. There is ZERO legal basis at all for sixth generation or more descendants to make a general claim for compensation based on unquantified and unproven claims of damage to their ancestors. End of story.

[RUFFHAUS 8]

I'm with MtG on this. All talk of this is reparations is crap. We have plenty of unecessary government entitlement programs already to soak up the tax dollars of the working stiff.

But, just to make things interesting, let me ask this. Should decendents of blacks whose ancestors owned slaves (yes, this did happen people) be excluded from the receiving these reparations? Or should we sue them too? Shall we bring the Dutch and the French in on this too? After all their ships brought the slaves here. Anyone who has HBO can see that 5 times a day during Black History Month. And to take it further, should the their be a lawsuit against all the various West African nations for the actions of their people hundreds of years ago in the selling of their own people?

Where does it all end?

[Sikander]

I'm agin' it! The only good that would come from this would be a detailed family tree for every American to the extent possible with a buget equal to up to 1/3 the expected settlement. It would bankrupt the country to attempt to do this fairly, and it's difficult to imagine a worse use for our money than whipping up the mother of all race identity battles.

p.s. Welcome back Mr. Fun!

[MrFun]

I found an interesting article of an argument in support for slavery reparations.

Title: The Legal Basis of the Claim for Slavery Reparations
Author: Anthony Gifford
Source: Human Rights: Journal of the Section of Individual Rights & Responsibilities, Sping 2000, Vol. 27 Issue 2

I did not have time to type out the entire seven page article, so where I have ommited the author's word, I noted the ommission. I'm sure you can locate the complete copy on the Internet or in your local library if you wish the complete copy. Below, are the author's words on slavery reparations.

PROPOSITION ONE
"The enslavement of Africans was a crime against humanity.
OMMISSION
Historians can show without difficulty how the invasion of African territories, the mass capture of Africans, the horrors of the middle passage, the chattelization of Africans in the Americas, and the extermination of the language and culture of the transported peoples constituted a continuing crime against humanity."

PROPOSITION TWO
"International law recognizes that those who commit crimes against humanity must make reparation.
The right to reparation is well recognized by international law. It was defined by the Permanent Court of International Justice in 1928.
OMMISSION
*In 1952, the Federal Republic of Germany reached an agreement with Israel for the payment of $222 million, following a claim by Jews who had fled from Nazi-controlled countries.
OMMISSION
*Japan has made reparations payments to South Korea for acts committed during the invasion and occupation of Korea by Japan in World War II.
*The UN Security Council passed a resolution binding in international law, requiring Iraq to pay reparations for its invasion of Kuwait.
*In 1988, the United States government passed the Civil Liberties Act, in order to make restitution to Japanese Americans with respect to losses resulting from their intermment and ill-treatment at the hands of U.S. authorities during World War II.
OMMISSION
*In November 1995, Queen Elizabeth personally presided over the signing of the Waikato Raupatu Claims Settlement Bill, giving reparation for the seizure of Maori land by British colonists in 1863.
OMMISSION

PROPOSITION THREE
"There is no legal barrier preventing the claim for reparations.
The New Zealand case is an example of a claim by the descendants of the original victims; they suffer from the loss of their anscestral land and dislocation of their social fabric.
OMMISSION

PROPOSITION FOUR
"The claim would be brought on behalf of all Africans, in Africa and in the diaspora, through an appropriate representative body.
Who would be the paintiffs in a claim for reparations? All Africans on the continent of Africa and in the diaspora who suffer the consequences of the crime of mass kidnap and enslavement have an interest in it. (OMMISSION) It is true that a minority of Africans collaborated with the slave trade and prospered as a result; but that should not undermine the overall truth that the rape of Africa was the responsibility of the European nations that established and promoted the trade.

Who should process the claim on behalf of so many? This is a matter that transcends national governments. Many African governments have been unfit representatives of their peoples. Even so, governments are the chief implementers of social policy and are responsible for the repayment of the foriegn debts that have become a new kind of shackle.
OMMISSION
Some form of appropriate, representative, accountable, and trustworthy body is required. Its size and composition, and the mechanisms for setting it up, will become clearer as the movement for reparations develops. A start has been made with the Group of Eminent Persons on Reparations (GEPR), set up by the Organization of African Unity in 1992.

PROPOSITION FIVE
"Claims would be brought against the governments of those countries that promoted and were enriched by the slave trade and the institution of slavery.
Who would be the defendants? Here it is appropriate to concentrate on the governments of the countries that fostered and supported the slave trade, legitimized the institution of slavery, and profited as a result.

An alternative approach would be to identify the companies and families who have made vast profits from slavery. (OMMISSION) This approach however, would create more problems than it would solve.

PROPOSITION SIX
"The claim amount should be asserted by experts in each aspect of life and in each region affected by the institution of slavery.
The assessment of what should be claimed is perhaps the most pressing and onerous task to be faced by the reparations movement. Each affected country will have to be studied. Different considerations would apply to people of the African continent, people of the now independent countries where slavery flourished, and the people who are minorities in Europe or the Americas.
OMMISSION
The damage may be classified and researched under different headings: economic, cultural, social, psychological, to name a few. To put monetary figures on any of the elements of the claim raises difficult questions. (OMMISSION)

The process of researching and answering those questions could have a value beyond the calculation of figures. I could be an educational process, even a healing process . . . . . (OMMISSION)

PROPOSITION SEVEN
"The claim, if not settled by agreement, would ultimately be determined by a special international tribunal recognized by all parties.
There is at present no court that would be competent to hear a claim for reparations. The settlement of such claims would require a new mechanism commensurate with the uniqueness and vastness of the issues.
OMMISSION

There remains much to be done before the case for reparations is really on the global agenda. It is a task in which lawyers can make a significant contribution. Lawyers, historians, social scientists, political scientists, community leaders, and all people of good will of all races who perceive that the crime of slavery was a monstrous evil for which atonement and reparation are long overdue are a part of the panoply of forces that will be needed in this effort." END QUOTES

This is only part of the long article, with various sections ommitted, as I saw fit. To read the complete arguments, and to give the author a more fair interpretation, one should locate the complete copy. If there are some questions that could be answered by the ommissions, I will refer to my copy and try to answer them if possible.

[Ming]

It is a task in which lawyers can make a significant contribution.

That would be a first
But that's right... they would make big money too

I read through the piece, and nothing in it makes me want to change my mind.

The people that were slaves are all dead.
The people that brought them to this country are all dead.
There fellow countrymen that sold them into slavery are all dead.
The people that bought the slaves are all dead.

So what I'm saying is... the case for this is dead.

[Caligastia]

PROPOSITION EIGHT
Give us all your money you white devils.

[MrFun]

Ming, the argument that I posted was not about dead people.

It is about how the present generation is affected socially, and economically due to their ancestors' suffering of slavery.

Again, the issue over slavery reparations is not about dead people. It's about the present generation who are suffering due to past slavery.

[Caligastia]

A few questions for you MrFun.

1. How will it be accurately determined who is "suffering due to past slavery"?

2. Who will be expected to pay reparations?

3. How will it be accurately determined who should pay what amount of reparations?

[MrFun]

The parts that I presented out of Propositions Four, Five, Six, and Seven should answer all of those questions.

But, let me know if after, rereading them, that they still do not answer them. Then I will go back to refer to my copy. Hell -- get your own copy over the Internet!

[Ming]

Originally posted by MrFun
Ming, the argument that I posted was not about dead people.

I know that... But you seem to imply that by posting this piece, that it is the single argument for doing so.

If the ex-slaves were still alive, I would have no problem trying to make right what was done to them. However, their children weren't slaves. and while they faced an almost impossible hill to climb... it was in their hands. Social and economic conditions were the cause for their problems... the problem was that they were Black... not because they were the children of slaves.

[Ramo]

Why should immigrants of poor white folk who were not responsible for slavery shoulder the tax burden? Why should the descendents of blacks who owned slaves get any reparations? Why shouldn't descendents of Arabic and African slave traders pay reparations? This is a half-baked proposal.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ramo
Why should immigrants of poor white folk who were not responsible for slavery shoulder the tax burden? Why should the descendents of blacks who owned slaves get any reparations? Why shouldn't descendents of Arabic and African slave traders pay reparations? This is a half-baked proposal.

Ack! Stop with your strawmen, you knave!!!