Milosevic on Trial

[Fidel]

Imran, if you listened today to the full text of the speach, you might have noticed something that I did on the first day - they are translating one sentence out of four.

OneFoot -
1)Kosovo was, under 1974 Consittution, an autonomous province WITHIN Serbia. Read it again.
2) You might be interested to know that republics did not have self determination right under the COnstitution. Only 'nations' did (and not 'nationalities' - this including Albanians as well). This also answers Roland's question - there was no right to seceed.
The problem started when everyone thought that they are opressed and that administrative borders are to be respected (theirs) but that everyone should also incorporate 'brothers' living accross the lines
3) Official Croatian census figures put Serbs at 4% now.

Let me make something clear. I am half Croatian. I am deeply sorry that Yugoslavia ever fell apart. I wish I would wake up and it is again a whole and that all of this was a bad dream. I emigrated because Milosevic's dudes at the place I worked prevented me from getting a job (and I wanted to work on academia). Yet to demonize him like this only serves to forget the crimes of others.

E.g.:
Why did Izetbegovic revoke his signature on Cutillero's plan for Bosnia in 1992?
But I gotta go back to work...damn you Roland for msging me back to the forum LOL

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
NATO does not exist to serve US interests:

That's quite correct. It exists to counter the influence of the USSR in Europe.

[Jack the Bodiless]

That was the motivation of its founders, maybe. But if Finland were to unleash its awesome military might against Norway (a NATO member), the US and other NATO countries would be obliged to act against Finland.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by LaRusso
Paiktis, Tudjman
1) is a typical genocide denier

My favourite Tudjman line is: 'The creation of the Third Reich was justified by the need to get rid of the Jews'.

I really wonder why US Jewish organizations supported Croatian Nazis and Bosnian Mujaheddin against the Serbs; have they lost their marbles?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
More than 3500 killed in that brief period before NATO intervened.

Says the Prosecution.

If this were a fair trial before a legal Tribunal, statements of the Prosecution might mean something.

But then again, they might still be wrong.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


My favourite Tudjman line is: 'The creation of the Third Reich was justified by the need to get rid of the Jews'.

I really wonder why US Jewish organizations supported Croatian Nazis and Bosnian Mujaheddin against the Serbs; have they lost their marbles?

Would you like to detail some of the atrocities you seem to think the Slavic Muslim forces guilty of? US Jewish organizations, like all decent and thinking people, supported the struggle against the murderers of 200,000 innocent civillians.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
Civil War... no way.

It was a civil war but for the fact that Germany and the US recognized Croatia and Bosnia. That recognition was not only politically questionable, it may have been a breaking of International Law as well.
***
Let´s say a right-wing terror group manages to take over Illinois. In a climate of violence and threat they hold a referendum about separation from the US. Their tanks rolling through Chicago they manage to get 80% of the frightened citizens to vote for 'White Power'.

Do you really think it would be a crime for the US Army to try remove the clowns, and restore normalcy?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Uhh... he actually is a horrible excuse for a human being. Standing on the fields of Kosovo Polje and announcing the supremacy of the Serbs. He's a man that believes in ethnic heirarchies and that the Serbs are a superior race than Albanian Muslims or Croat Catholics.

The Big Lie technique the Nazis were so fond of. Here´s the full text of his Kosovo Polje speech. They even give you 500$, if you find a racist quote.

http://www.icdsm.org/more/peaceintro.htm

Edit: The above is the introduction of the editor (with the 500$ challenge). The actual speech is here:

http://www.icdsm.org/milosevic/kosovo.htm

[Goingonit]

Not in English. Th esmart dictatorsknow what's good for them: if they said "I hate Bosnians, Croats and Albanians" then the entire UN would be on their @$$ before you could say "nazi".

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by LaRusso
Imran, if you listened today to the full text of the speach, you might have noticed something that I did on the first day - they are translating one sentence out of four.

OneFoot -
1)Kosovo was, under 1974 Consittution, an autonomous province WITHIN Serbia. Read it again.
2) You might be interested to know that republics did not have self determination right under the COnstitution. Only 'nations' did (and not 'nationalities' - this including Albanians as well). This also answers Roland's question - there was no right to seceed.
The problem started when everyone thought that they are opressed and that administrative borders are to be respected (theirs) but that everyone should also incorporate 'brothers' living accross the lines
3) Official Croatian census figures put Serbs at 4% now.

Let me make something clear. I am half Croatian. I am deeply sorry that Yugoslavia ever fell apart. I wish I would wake up and it is again a whole and that all of this was a bad dream. I emigrated because Milosevic's dudes at the place I worked prevented me from getting a job (and I wanted to work on academia). Yet to demonize him like this only serves to forget the crimes of others.

E.g.:
Why did Izetbegovic revoke his signature on Cutillero's plan for Bosnia in 1992?
But I gotta go back to work...damn you Roland for msging me back to the forum LOL

1) True, but shouldn't Kosovo had a 'republic' like status now? It had it's own legal system as far as I can remember under 1974 constitution, and a member in Yugoslavian presidency. Within SRJ it had none of these.

2) I thought they had a right to seperate after a referendum that was positive. But do you have a link or something?

3) I would like a link on this too, I thought that the number of Serbs in Croatia is much greater 150000 as you say. Basically as if 2/3 left.

Regardless I agree that there were crimes committed by all parties and that is undisputable, but Slobodan Milosevic was pretty much the one who started it all -the war- not the seccession - or his regime. I believe that this will be proved, and he definitley has a right to defend himself and put forth the evidence that will prove the opposite. At the end he was the head the state and should have had plenty of evidence to present if the claims are not true. I doubt that Kostunica and current SRJ government wouldnt supply the evidence. And more than anything I am interested in him proving the support for his actions from UK and French governments and politicians at the beginning.

My favourite Tudjman line is: 'The creation of the Third Reich was justified by the need to get rid of the Jews'.

I really wonder why US Jewish organizations supported Croatian Nazis and Bosnian Mujaheddin against the Serbs; have they lost their marbles?

Well I haven't heard that line have you got a link but I don't like him either. But to indentify present Croats with the Nazis and Bosnians with Mujahedeen??? Thay only shows prejudice and lack of judgement on your side.

It was a civil war but for the fact that Germany and the US recognized Croatia and Bosnia. That recognition was not only politically questionable, it may have been a breaking of International Law as well.
***
Let´s say a right-wing terror group manages to take over Illinois. In a climate of violence and threat they hold a referendum about separation from the US. Their tanks rolling through Chicago they manage to get 80% of the frightened citizens to vote for 'White Power'.

Do you really think it would be a crime for the US Army to try remove the clowns, and restore normalcy?

and that shows the lack of knowledge about the case in place. As you wouldn't know 80 % certainly were not frightened, and if you accept that an multiethnic state sorts out it's internal problems by one ethnicity subjecting the others and keeping them quiet with arms. Well I guess you wouldn't mind to be murdered just because Slovenes are taking over Austria because they control the army ??? (and that woulkd be just internal porblem of course - OK they are too small but let say they compromice 25% of Austrian population)Btw the state was created trough agreement from the nations in question at the first place.

And as for Kosovo speach for than Yugoslavian situation was quite 'protective' and had an accent on the Serbian national strenght. Like this

Through the play of history and life, it seems as if Serbia has, precisely in this year, in 1989, regained its state and its dignity and thus has celebrated an event of the distant past which has a great historical and symbolic significance for its future.

for example

That was totallw weird for Yugoslavian communist "bratstvo I jedinstvo" - brotherhood and unity moto. Where publicly a republic pride and exceptionality displays were not allowd.
That was a public start.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Natan
Would you like to detail some of the atrocities you seem to think the Slavic Muslim forces guilty of? US Jewish organizations, like all decent and thinking people, supported the struggle against the murderers of 200,000 innocent civillians.

Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds.

No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying?

However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:

1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.

2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.

3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz.

Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didn´t want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.

Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they won´t kill so many?

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Goingonit
Not in English. Th esmart dictatorsknow what's good for them: if they said "I hate Bosnians, Croats and Albanians" then the entire UN would be on their @$$ before you could say "nazi".

Hopeless.

The speech was held in Serbo-croatian, of course. The link gives the translation.

If there was any racist speech of Milosevic, in Suaheli or whatever, the media would be happy to quote it; but they don´t; because there isn´t.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave

My favourite Tudjman line is: 'The creation of the Third Reich was justified by the need to get rid of the Jews'.

Well I haven't heard that line have you got a link but I don't like him either. But to indentify present Croats with the Nazis and Bosnians with Mujahedeen

Tudjman was very happy with the Nazis; and his party certainly identified with Ustasha.

The Tudjman quote is from a book he wrote in 1989. It is mentioned in this article:

http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

The author also mentions the fact that Izetbegovic, another Western darling, had started his political career as a Nazi activist.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds.

No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying?

However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:

1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.

2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.

3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz.

Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didn´t want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.

Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they won´t kill so many?

If you lived in Republika Srpska I could belive that you were thinking this, but in Austria wow the ignorance.

just for the record

1- Tudjman while on the right did not indentify himself with them as no sane person would.

2- over zelaous??? not really just like them -- can you beat the germans (and Austrians ) in that - i doubt it.

3- Jasenovac was the name, and 750000 - 1100000 Serbs, man no Serbs would be left. Probably 56,000 and 97,000 of all races including Croats that opposed the regime.

go here

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac//

As for the difference with Germany and Austria mainstream Croatian politicans dod not choose this path, but after Germany invaded they setup Ustase as the ruling faction that needed full german support to stay in power. They were far right faction at the time that did not have political influence in First Yugoslavia or Croatia, but unfortunatly Hitler found great allies in them once he invaded the country and set them up as they had same ideas. Many Croats died from them as well.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds.

No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying?

I guess you think that the 200,000 missing Muslims and Catholics went to the same place as the millions of missing Jews?

However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:

1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.

2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.

3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz.

Aware of all of that. It goes without saying that the Ustashe were monsters of the vilest kind, and trust me, I am also aware of the role of the Serbian people in fighting against the Nazis and even in trying to save Jews from their clutches. But murdering Muslim civillians in Srebrenica and elsewhere is not in any way a response to the crimes of the Ustashe.

Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didn´t want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.

Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they won´t kill so many?

It's not the Serbian secession at Krajina and in Slavonia that disturbs me. It's not their fighting in Bosnia either. It's that the Serbian militias killed hundreds of thousands of innocents.