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I wonder how Americans would feel if their soldiers were kept like the Al Qaeda POW's

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  • Roland: Could you comment on this topic?

    In the discussion of whether Al Queda (as opposed to Taliban) prisoners should be considered POWs, there has been little mention of Taliban control over the Al Queda forces. This requirement appears both in the case of "militias or volunteer corps forming part" of the armed forces of a party to a conflict
    (Geneva III, art. 4(A)(1)), and in the case of "other militias and members of other volunteer corps" who fulfill the four criteria in Geneva III, art. 4(A)(2) (carrying arms openly, etc.). The "forming part" language in Article 4(A)(1) makes a control requirement obvious. Similarly, Article 4(A)(2) covers other militias or corps "belonging to a Party to the conflict."
    In both cases, some degree of Taliban control over Al Queda forces would be required in order for the Al Queda detainees to qualify as POWS. Note that in the case of 4(A)(2), control is required IN ADDITION to meeting the four indicia of military structure.

    The crucial legal question, therefore, is what degree of Taliban control was required? My sense is that under 4(A)(1), this is rather straight-forward factual question: did Al Queda fighters "form part of" the Taliban military in the sense that they functioned and were treated like any other Taliban troops.
    The existence of a separate command structure, for example, would appear to disqualify Al Queda from this status.

    As for 4(A)(2), the degree of necessary control was addressed directly by the Appeals Chamber of the Yugoslav Tribunal in the Tadic case (paras. 88-145). The overall question facing the court was whether the conflict in Bosnia was internal or international. It would be considered international if the FRY had incurred state responsibility for the acts of Bosnian Serb forces. This, in turn, depended on the degree of control required of the Yugoslavs. In answering this question, the court focussed on the "belonging to a Party to the conflict" language in Article 4(A)(2), which it found to embody a test of control.

    The court first declined to follow the test used by the ICJ in the Nicaragua case (which was much stricter and would pose great difficulties for any Al Queda detainee). Instead, it held that "In order to attribute the acts of a military or paramilitary group to a State, it must be proved that the State wields overall control over the group." (para. 131). The court's elaboration of this test is worth quoting at length:

    "control by a State over subordinate armed forces or militias or paramilitary units may be of an overall character (and must comprise more than the mere provision of financial assistance or military equipment or training). This requirement, however, does not go so far as to include the issuing of specific orders by the State, or its direction of each individual operation. Under
    international law it is by no means necessary that the controlling authorities should plan all the operations of the units dependent on them, choose their targets, or give specific instructions concerning the conduct of military operations and any alleged violations of international humanitarian law. The control required by international law may be deemed to exist when a State (or, in the context of an armed conflict, the Party to the conflict) has a role in organising, coordinating or planning the military actions of the military group, in addition to financing, training and equipping or providing operational support to that group.
    Acts performed by the group or members thereof may be regarded as acts of de facto State organs regardless of any specific instruction by the controlling State concerning the commission of each of those acts." (para. 137).

    Whether or not Al Queda considered themselves comrades of the Taliban in a common struggle, or indeed any subjective views of Al Queda personnel about their relationship to the Taliban, would appear irrelevant to this test. The test is an objective one and focusses on the acts of the state authorities vis-a-vis militias, not the other way around.

    Given the scarcity of facts about the relationship between Al Queda and the Taliban, it is difficult to assess how this test would be applied here. Reports in the media seem to suggest that while a close working relationship did exist, Al Queda was independent in many ways. For example, given bin Laden's independent wealth and the group's other sources of funding, it is unclear whether the Taliban had any role in "financing, training and equipping or providing operational support to" Al Queda.

    On the other hand, this paucity of facts would appear to heighten the "doubt" referred to in Article 5 of Geneva III as to whether Al Queda detainees fit within Article 4(A)(2). The case for such doubt being resolved by a "competent tribunal," and not US political or military leaders, thus appears quite strong.


    It's making the rounds on a newsgroup that I'm signed up for and the topic was interesting and wanted to know your thoughts on the matter.
    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

    Comment


    • Re: Roland: Could you comment on this topic?

      Dino:

      "control by a State over subordinate armed forces or militias or paramilitary units may be of an overall character..."

      "Given the scarcity of facts about the relationship between Al Queda and the Taliban, it is difficult to assess how this test would be applied here."

      That's essentially the problem I debated with Mike about "command structures". The convention acknowledges various formations that may be quite detached from the "state" - and having little knowledge who actually was in charge, I think it should be resolved by tribunal. Being sort of allied with a quite independantly organised force is a borderline case IMO. Or it can be resolved by the de facto adhering to (most of?) the convention that seems to go on anyway.

      Another angle is whether Al Qaeda, if independent, could have been a party to the conflict on its own. I wouldn't extend that too far and require a form of quasi-sovereign territorial control which it did not have AFAIK. But the rules of armed conflicts have been extended to things like guerilla wars, and that line is a blur.

      Comment


      • Well Chris, we are getting some form of agreement here....

        "The canidate that is most likely to be voted in is usually backed by the party, not someone's son.... It had ZERO to do with who's son they where."

        So their position (and this is about a political career in its entirety) is unrelated to their name ? I don't think so. The name is not enough, sure, and dubya is a particularly manageable politician, sure... but what would have become of George Bush II, son of used car salesman Bush I ?

        "It ate the Reich's resources, destroyed it's fuel supplies, destroyed it's air force"

        Drain on resources - definately, but the same would have been achieved with a focus on military/industrial targets.
        Fuel supplies - not a civilian target.
        Destroyed its air force - not a civilian target, and to engage it, attacks on military/industrial targets would have done.

        The attacks on cities only strengthened the regime and defiance. What was gained by the firestorms in Hamburg, Dresden, etc...

        "In case you haven't been paying attention (As your comment would indicate) 99% of them AERN'T suicide bombers."

        And the 1 % that is constututes what is really dangerous. And nothing will deter them. You can weaken them by taking away their support, but that is much more a matter of solid police work (or taking out staging grounds like Afghansitan) than of deterrence.

        "I don't need to convince my side, we know we will win, as you do. THEY have to be convinced."

        Good. Then don't make this into a monumental struggle between good and evil, that gives them the impression they have a fighting chance.

        "...most terrorism is totally ineffective, and usually produces the exact opposite of what is intended, mainly it hardens the resolve of those attacked, not weakens."

        Of course it barely works. But that tells us little about the way to fight it.

        "I expected nothing less, I always hope that people wouild take responcibility for their actions, but that is extremly unlikely."

        Especially in that case, with the poor-boy-only-wanted-to-find-his-way-no-responsibility-victim-of-society parents.

        Comment


        • Earlier in this thread, people said the US has the moral authority to try these people. Just like they had the right to try the nazi's according to US moral code during WW2, even though under german law they did nothing wrong. So in essence what is being said here is that the winning country has a right to try those of the loosing country by its moral code. So if germany won the war, it would have the right to execute US leaders for not executing and rounding up jews.

          Now to modern times why doesn't the us government execute all muslems. They believe when they die they get to rape 70 some vergins, that infidels have no rights etc etc. If one looks at history you will notice islam has always been spread through the philosphy of convert or die, bin laddin is just the modern incarnation of this philosphy.

          As for those prisoners in cuba what are they going to do with them? They all use one name, they lived like rats in a war ravaged country and its highly unlikely any of them had anything to do with the world trade center. What kind of case can they build against them, they don't even know some of thier names let alone where they where and have been or doing the last 4 -5 years.
          Join the army, travel to foreign countries, meet exotic people -
          and kill them!

          Comment


          • You know reading the title to this thread is pretty disturbing.

            I really don't care what was discussed in this thread. After seeing how much hatred there is here in general for USA and for other groups on this forum I've come to the conclusion that the human race needs to end and start all over................
            signature not visible until patch comes out.

            Comment


            • Colin Powell is reported overnight as advocating giving POW status to the detainees. Presumably this would have been on the advice of the international lawyers in the State Department.

              I had to laugh when I saw Donald Rumsfeld trying to argue to reporters that the detainees were not being held in cages. Tell us another one Don!
              Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

              Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

              Comment


              • In an interview w/National Public Radio last week, the Marine general in command at Guantanamo, Michael Leonard, said that he considered that the prisoners had substantially the same rights as POWs -- including the right not to answer any questions placed to them.

                He said that he was adhering to the Geneva Convention to the best of his ability, except where that wasn't possible. (For instance, providing certain documents to prisoners in their own languages; IIRC there are something like 18 languages involved, and Leonard said he didn't yet have the resources to comply.)

                NPR's Tom Gjelten, in a report Tuesday (30 January), said that the military brass with whom he'd spoken are generally in favor of ("virtually unanimous") applying GC to the prisoners. They note that the US is not the only entity that can take prisoners, and that in general the GC has worked to US advantage over the years.

                Gjelten & NPR's Robert Siegal discuss at:

                (Real Audio)
                "When all else fails, a pigheaded refusal to look facts in the face will see us through." -- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett

                Comment


                • Originally posted by uh Clem

                  NPR's Tom Gjelten, in a report Tuesday (30 January), said that the military brass with whom he'd spoken are generally in favor of ("virtually unanimous") applying GC to the prisoners. They note that the US is not the only entity that can take prisoners, and that in genereal the GC has worked to US advantage over the years.
                  Of course they are - if U.S. troops get captured they would hope to be extended Geneva Convention rights. Its just common sense and the main reason most combatants comply. It cuts both ways.
                  Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                  Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


                    Of course they are - if U.S. troops get captured they would hope to be extended Geneva Convention rights. Its just common sense and the main reason most combatants comply. It cuts both ways.

                    Yeah, I think that's the point a lot of people have been trying to make. While the US has almost (just to cover myself) always followed the GC for it's prisoners, US troops have routinely been beaten, tortured, starved, etc. So to answer your original question, I think we'd be pleased if our soldiers were treated the way the terrorist prisoners are being treated by the US.
                    "Let us kill the English! Their concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!"

                    ~Lisa as Jeanne d'Arc

                    Comment


                    • Good solution Kyle - treat your prisoners really badly because the enemy will anyway. Are you some kind of genius or something?
                      Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                      Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
                        Colin Powell is reported overnight as advocating giving POW status to the detainees. Presumably this would have been on the advice of the international lawyers in the State Department.
                        From what I've heard, he advocated a case by case review as foreseen in the Convention. Now I guess Powell is the latest entry in the list of leftist softies for certain people.

                        I really respect that guy. He shows that he's no career politician and no daddy boy.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

                          So the 10 commandments only apply when self-defense is not an issue? If your going to ignore aspects of Christian faith when it suits you, well, see your quote...
                          Defense is the issue. Every U.S. action is in self defense, do not fire until fired upon! Sometimes we prevoke, but we never shoot to kill first (wound yes, kill no). One must survive. I will defend myself, killing my enemy, if need be, without remorse and know in my heart i did nothing wrong in order to defend my family, my faith, my country and my God! The Ten Commandments apply to EVERY situation, but even God says there will be war and that killing in defense is different than murder. This is why capital punishment is wrong, but justified warfare against an evil power is, while not right, also not a sin.

                          In a war such as this one...the issues cannot be solved by negotiation. They, the enemy, give us two options. Kill or be killed. Offense can be a defensive action too for it is preventative. For instance if we had not dropped the bombs in WWII on Japan, many more would have lost their lives inorder to gain peace on Earth. The best senarios and predictions say upward of 12-15 million; the 500 thousand killed is small potatoes to that number.

                          You're looking at negotiating in the nature that the U.S. and Britain have enjoied for almost two centuries. Some cultures do not have the value on human life that Western culture does. And as I'm sure you probably feel sometimes in your relationships at home and with friends that some people are hard headed. Same goes for nations, some are thick in the head and only listen when they're on the business end of a rifle. And in some situations it must be an absolute surrender, you can't get that from negotiating. How could we negotiate with terrorists? Ask them respectfully not to kill our citizens? What do we do then next week when they kill another thousand? What do we say then? The nature of the war we're fighting is that we don't want 9-11 to happen again to anyone!
                          Last edited by Viper2263; January 30, 2002, 11:32.
                          "But really it all came down to one thing. A person was invincible only because people thought him to be so, and therefore that person's security was, like all the importnant aspects of life a thing of the mind.

                          But Human motivation is also a thing of the mind, and fear has never been the strongest emotion. Throughout history, people have risked their lives for love, for patriotism, for principle, and for God far more often than fear has made them run away. Upon that fact depends progress." -Tom Clancy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
                            Good solution Kyle - treat your prisoners really badly because the enemy will anyway. Are you some kind of genius or something?

                            When have I ever advocated treating them poorly? As I said before, they are being treated extremly well, as such, if our soldiers were treated that way we wouldn't have problems with it.


                            Some keep bringing up the notion that if we treat prisioners well, our will be given the same level of good treatment. This is obviously false.
                            "Let us kill the English! Their concept of individual rights could undermine the power of our beloved tyrants!"

                            ~Lisa as Jeanne d'Arc

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Viper2263
                              The Ten Commandments apply to EVERY situation,
                              Thou Shalt Not Kill
                              but even God says there will be war and that killing in defense is different than murder.
                              Without a Bible to hand, you'll have to point me to where you are looking, sorry.
                              In a war such as this one...the issues cannot be solved by negotiation.
                              I didn't say they could.
                              Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
                              "I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
                                Thou Shalt Not Kill
                                Thou shalt not murder. There's a small difference.
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                                Comment

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