The Apalling Spectacle of American Christianity

[Alexander's Horse]

Yes, yes, but the question is why does the U.S> have so many religious extremists. The answer is because of the reformation.

Iain Paisely is a perfect example of the kind of militant protestant that went to the Americas to find "liberty". He and Pat Robertson are cut from the same cloth - that's the point you ninny!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, this took off! I wish I could have gotten back to it before now.

Shi and AH make good points, but the question is still begged: why the US? Modern Germany, for example, is also a product of the Reformation, but isn't as plagued by religious extremism. After all, all the Christian extremists were talking about here were Europeans not too many generations back; what is it about coming to the US that spins them out of the mainstream?

Roland makes a good point about intellectual stagnation, but even that begs two questions: (1) then why don't we see the same phenomena on the same scale in Australia and Canada, countries with somewhat similar histories and similar intellectual climates? (2) It does seem paradoxical that a country you are calling intellectually "stagnant" (and I don't disagree) would nevertheless dream up all sorts of new spins on Christianity, rather than sticking with the tried-and-true mainstream stuff. If all of our institutions are consrvative (again, I agree), then why is there so much experimentation within religion and only within religion?

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Roland]

"Modern Germany, for example, is also a product of the Reformation"

Only one factor among many (just as for the US). Also, German protestantism was to a good deal government-introduced for political reasons, just like Henry's anglican church. But maybe the religious fervour was better controlled in the protestant german churches, than in Henry's "I'm da pope" local version of the catholic church.

"(1) then why don't we see the same phenomena on the same scale in Australia and Canada, countries with somewhat similar histories and similar intellectual climates?"

Both haven't been founded on religion to the extent most today-US colonies had been. The forming of a separate identity came later. They did not develop the idea of isolating the new shining city on the hill from Britain and thereby also Europe. The intellectual climate is still a lot less conservative than in the US, wouldn't you think ?

"(2) It does seem paradoxical that a country you are calling intellectually "stagnant" (and I don't disagree) would nevertheless dream up all sorts of new spins on Christianity, rather than sticking with the tried-and-true mainstream stuff."

Dreaming up new versions is the tried-and-true stuff. Every heresy bore its own heresies. Ad infinitum. That's the reason I like early christian history, esp the Christology Dispute. It's stunningly absurd. With separation of church and state it is hardly surprising that organised religion desintegrates.

Also, how innovative is american christianity ? Apart from the Mormones, anything really new ?

[Sprayber]

Some of you still don't get it. The US is not overly religious when it comes to government. Sure politicians pay lip service to it. But the government is not run on religious values. If it were, why would we have abortion, people who can't pray in schools, issues in which the ten commands are not allowed in schools, or classes that mock students who dare believe in creationism?

BTW, when was the last time America launched a religious crusade? Or the last time we slaughtered people based on religion? All of our mistakes and bad deeds have been done in the name of the state. Not God. They may have wanted to use God as an excuse, but it was the state who benifitted. Just because we don't throw Pat Robertson and Falwell into prison for their views or take their organizations from them, doesn't mean that they control the government.

One more thing. What is wrong with people expressing their views if they don't hurt anyone?

[Roland]

"Some of you still don't get it. The US is not overly religious when it comes to government."

Nope, that's not the point. The US government is more secular than many in Europe. US politics is less secular than Europe's.

"Sure politicians pay lip service to it."

And form their agenda accordingly. If it weren't for the political influence of religion, why would praying in public schools or creationism be such issues ? I may find a dozen Creationists here if I search long enough. And there are crosses in public schools with a majority of catholic pupils here - a fascinating legal problem going back to the concord with the Vatican, but not a single lawsuit about it. (There was one with a similar situation in Germany, though, where it was ruled unconstitutional.)

"All of our mistakes and bad deeds have been done in the name of the state. Not God."

Neither. Mammon!

[KrazyHorse]

Spray, you guys allow abortions, but there's still an enormous controversy over it. Some states (Kansas, for one) don't allow evolutionary biology, a perfectly valid branch of science, to be taught in schools due to its supposed conflict with the way the Bible tells us the world works. A recent study found that 44% of American adults agree with the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.", while 68% of people actually believe that creationism (a manifestly religious viewpoint) should be taught in school.

33% of Americans believe that the Bible is the word of God, to be taken literally word for word, compared with 7% of Britons. Other countries have their nutjobs, but large parts of your country seem to be dominated by them, and they seem willing to impose their religious viewpoints in public classrooms.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lars-E
Chegitz, ppl have been saying that for 2000 years.

Why are you dragging me into this?

[chequita guevara]

Far be it from me to defend them, but neither Hitler nor Stalin killed people because those two were atheists. There are no schimsms in athiesm. Atheism is not a movement. It's just the recognition that there is no supernatural world.

Christianty, Islam, Hiduism, Judaism, and other religions have killed as a result of their religious beliefs. Hitler and Stalin did not kill because of their atheist beliefs, but for other reasons.

There is no comparison.

BTW, the reason why there are so many religious nut jobs here in America is because they all moved here. The first European settlement in the US was in present day Jacksonville by French Hugenots (before their settlement was massacred by the Spaniards). The second English settlement in the US was by the Pilgrams, a group of people too uptight for the uptight Englsih and too uptight for the tolerent Dutch.

All sorts of religious groups came here: Baptists, Quakers, Shakers, Mennonites, etc., etc. to esacpe perscution back in Europe. And then came the Great Awakening (which also happened in Great Britain). When Evangalism swept the nation, circa 1800. We still feel the effects of that today.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by faded glory
Oh and my comments werent directed at you moron. More at the thread heading......

But since you rudely attacked me, and tried to point out that you are "smarter than thou". Of course you dont know a dime about me..and you sure as hell do not know my IQ!

Not that IQ is a measurment of Intellegence anyway!? I always thought Common Sense and Judgement were alot more important in the game of life.

When absimiliard said that his IQ is at least 40 points above moron, he wasn't necessarily comparing himself to you.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Far be it from me to defend them, but neither Hitler nor Stalin killed people because those two were atheists.

Zip it![/Dr. Evil] I already settled this arguement on the other page. Why bring it up again?

[chequita guevara]

Cuz I don't think you did settle it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Cuz I don't think you did settle it.

So, you don't agree that it is a childish and stupid arguement to engage in?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
So, you don't agree that it is a childish and stupid arguement to engage in?

This is Apolyton, are there any other kind of arguments?

[DinoDoc]

Good one, che!

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
This is Apolyton, are there any other kind of arguments?

Oh! I forgot where I was for a moment. Carry on then.

[Lars-E]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Many of these groups are struggling with the great issues of our day, i.e., the acceptance of gays as parishoners and clergy, and the acceptance of women as clergy. In this respect our mainstream churches are way ahead of Europen churches. In the past the Protestant Episcopal Church has maintained a continuing dialog with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S. That was up to the first ordination of a femal priest In New Jersy, adter which the conferrences were ended and have never been resumed by the Catholics. More recently one of our most outspoken advocates for gay clergy was given a complete cold shoulder by the Anglican Conferrence in England. Maybe the problem is that we're just so far ahead of the churches of Europe.

Ahead or behind...You have to be kidding? Or are you one of those Americans who think Scandinavia isn't part of Europe?