Deaf "culture"

[November Adam]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Your turn to reply November Adam. Your side loses if you or someone else doesnt.

I'll get back to ya.. don't have much time for a good rebutal right now.

[November Adam]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Well, i see someone who's willing to really debate, instead of call others brick walls. Thank you November Adam.

No problem.. ya brick wall

As I have said, deaf people are barred from enjoying an entire sense of all the beauty, art, and sentiments that sounds could bring.

This is true, but on the other hand people whom are deaf will experience sound in a truly different manner. If sound is just vibrations as pointed out before. Then there sense of touch could be heightend and they could experience music by vibration alone. Especially if some talented individual where to create music for its vibrations alone.

Not for language. Language really is dependent on age. The younger someone is, the faster he/she can pick up a language. This has been proven.

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/acquisition.html

there's an example where a 13-year-old girl was discovered to never have learnt speech. Even with instruction, she never advanced beyond basic constructions.

The deaf child can go to school, where everyone is speaking English. I don't see why it's so hard.

Children go to school by age 5, they have missed the majority of there language building years by this point.

yes, but don't you think it's not right to LIMIT the deaf person's choice to 0.1% of the population?

This happens more often then one would like to care about for more than just people with disabilities.

Oh cmon, are you seriously saying that not being able to hear speech or car honks isn't a limitation?
Also, not being able to listen to music etc are limitations on the capacity to enjoy life.

I'm saying the only limitations you have for enjoying life are the ones you and others put on them. There are many other facets in life besides the ones derived from sound. Say a person is a total clutz, are they missing out in life because they can't play sports?

ok.... and i might hasten to add, a limited enjoyment. the Reason? music was designed for the hearing ear. I would doubt that a deaf person would be able to tell a C from a C#, or a clarinet from a bassoon, just from vibrations. Yet that's where the beauty of music lies. Subtle differences.

see above.

but the child in question doesn't want this culture. it's being forced onto her.

If one accepts that the deaf can have a culture (they have their own language, art, and way of life). Then one has to accept the choices the parents make.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by November Adam


No problem.. ya brick wall

no fair!
I refuse to argue with you any longer!

This is true, but on the other hand people whom are deaf will experience sound in a truly different manner. If sound is just vibrations as pointed out before. Then there sense of touch could be heightend and they could experience music by vibration alone. Especially if some talented individual where to create music for its vibrations alone.

yes.... but currently music isn't created for that. Today's music is created for, as i said before, subtle variations, like that between a bassoon and a clarinet, or between a C and a C#. It would be extraordinarily hard for any human to tell the difference thru vibrations, let alone appreciate these differences in vibration.

Children go to school by age 5, they have missed the majority of there language building years by this point.

yes.... but, take me as an example
I learnt English in school. Today I function by it. Yet, the only environment in English I had was school. No one in my family speaks English that well.
The point being, school can be a very good language learning environment.

This happens more often then one would like to care about for more than just people with disabilities.

yes.... i know there are loners around. But deaf person are forced to be more "lonerish" because of limited choice, whether they are really loners or not. That's cruel.

I'm saying the only limitations you have for enjoying life are the ones you and others put on them. There are many other facets in life besides the ones derived from sound. Say a person is a total clutz, are they missing out in life because they can't play sports?

actually yes.

see above.

see above.

If one accepts that the deaf can have a culture (they have their own language, art, and way of life). Then one has to accept the choices the parents make.

No, I disagree. You can agree to people making choices for themselves... but forcing these radical decisions on unwilling children and banishing them to a life of deafness is waaaay overboard.

[November Adam]

Originally posted by ranskaldan

no fair!
I refuse to argue with you any longer!

okay I win!

yes.... but currently music isn't created for that. Today's music is created for, as i said before, subtle variations, like that between a bassoon and a clarinet, or between a C and a C#. It would be extraordinarily hard for any human to tell the difference thru vibrations, let alone appreciate these differences in vibration.

Give it time...

yes.... but, take me as an example
I learnt English in school. Today I function by it. Yet, the only environment in English I had was school. No one in my family speaks English that well.
The point being, school can be a very good language learning environment.

Ya your probably right about this one.

yes.... i know there are loners around. But deaf person are forced to be more "lonerish" because of limited choice, whether they are really loners or not. That's cruel.

Then maybe we should teach children how to communicate with ASL as well? It wouldn't be that hard, and I think kids would like it.

actually yes.

My wife doesn't think so... she says life is just fine without sports.

see above.

I don't see anything?

No, I disagree. You can agree to people making choices for themselves... but forcing these radical decisions on unwilling children and banishing them to a life of deafness is waaaay overboard.

If JW are allowed to prevent their children from having a blood transfusion, which is potentially life threatening, then this should be allowed, which isn't life threatening. (Kinda makes me sick to say this though)

I think I just have a problem with the government strong arming their way into this sort of situation.

[DinoDoc]

Check your PMs, NA.

[Natan]

So the argument here is that by refusing to have an invasive form of surgery performed on their child for reasons other than the ones you think are acceptable, they should have the kid taken away? Even though the operation can be performed later in life? What's next? Abducting Amish children on the grounds that it will be hard for them to integrate into normal society if/when they decide to leave their community? Maybe afterwards we can abduct Mormon children so that they can experience mind altering substances and pornographic films?

The parents are authorized to make all decisions on behalf of their child until the child reaches majority. Furthermore, it's absurd to argue that the parents should have their child abducted from them not because of the decision they made but because of the reason for that decision - in fact, it smacks of thought crime.

[November Adam]

Thanks DinoDoc.

Here's a poem I found on a website Dino informed me about.

"They Say I'm Deaf", written by a Deaf person, Saul Kessler which reflects the sentiments of millions of Deaf persons all over the world.


They Say I'm Deaf

They say I'm deaf,
These folks who call me friend.
They do not comprehend.

They say I'm deaf,
And look on me as queer,
Because I cannot hear.

They say I'm deaf,
I, who hear all day
My throbbing heart at play,
The song the sunset sings,
The joy of pretty things.
The smiles that greet my eye,
Two lovers passing by,
A brook, a tree, a bird;
Who says I have not heard?
Aye, tho' it must seem odd,
At night I oft hear God.
So many kinds, I get,
Of happy songs, and yet
They say I'm deaf!

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by November Adam
Give it time...

have fun waiting.... but even if music is composed for the deaf community (a mindbending idea)! Even if that happens, the deaf still won't have access to the majority of the musical treasures of Humankind.

Then maybe we should teach children how to communicate with ASL as well? It wouldn't be that hard, and I think kids would like it.

should we teach kids Braille too? Maybe we should teach them Czech, or Albanian, or Swahili?
Or don't you think learning French or Spanish is much more worthwhile since they're simply more useful?

My wife doesn't think so... she says life is just fine without sports.

But what if the clutz wants to play sports? What if the deaf wants to listen to music as they are meant to be? I'm talking about these cases here, in which the deaf is simply barred from doing something they want, because of an operation they didn't have.

I don't see anything?

I do.

If JW are allowed to prevent their children from having a blood transfusion, which is potentially life threatening, then this should be allowed, which isn't life threatening. (Kinda makes me sick to say this though)

I think I just have a problem with the government strong arming their way into this sort of situation.

I wouldn't call it strongarming. I'd call it protecting children's rights.

[November Adam]

Hey ranskaldan and folk read this I found it very enlightening.

http://deafness.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fdww.deafworldweb.org%2Fpub%2Fc%2Frjc%2Fcicarver.html

[ranskaldan]

i've just stepped back and taken a look at this debate...

we have a faction championing the rights of the deaf to hear again

we have another faction championing the rights of the deaf to enjoy life

i don't exactly see the existence of any conflicts between these two

but oh well.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
i've just stepped back and taken a look at this debate...

we have a faction championing the rights of the deaf to hear again

we have another faction championing the rights of the deaf to enjoy life

i don't exactly see the existence of any conflicts between these two

but oh well.

The debate has largely been on the question of whether it is wrong for a parent to decide against having an implant put into their deaf child. One side says being deaf is a terrible handicap, parents are evil if they say no to an implant and that the government should intervene. The other side argues that a deaf person can enjoy a great life, that parents have a right to decide, and that the government should not intervene.

Quite a difference of opinion.

[November Adam]

So did anyone read the link?

Pretty interesting about the fact that so much energy is spent trying to make the child learn to speak and hear that they don't have as much of a chance to learn to read and write.

Yeah Tingkai pretty much nailed the difference in opinion on this, and it is a fairly large void.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by November Adam
So did anyone read the link?

Pretty interesting about the fact that so much energy is spent trying to make the child learn to speak and hear that they don't have as much of a chance to learn to read and write.

Just read the link. It was quite interesting, particularly the part about how people view deafness. Reminds me of Hong Kong where there is a society for the deaf (people who can hear helping those who cannot) and a society of the deaf (people who are deaf helping others like themselves).

[November Adam]

Why aren't all the people who said deaf people should get a grip posting?

[KrazyHorse]

Because we got bored with it. This subject doesn't have legs.