60 minutes goes McCarthyist

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by MarkG
am i allowed to smile when i hear that the scheduled meeting of the Greek Prime Minister with the Dick Cheney was turned into a phone call due to security concerns?

He was afraid Simitis would stab him.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by paiktis22
He was afraid Simitis would stab him.

george bush wasnt afraid to see him though
or was he not warned about it by his staff?

[Bereta_Eder]

Anyway, in conclusion I'll just write what I said to MtG.

That, yes, in the '80s the Papandreou governent might very well have turned a blind eye to people going through Greece. After all he supported Quadaffi openly and in public.

However, the present leadership of Greece is commited to play by the western book.

About the 17N I can see two reasons for not being apprehended so far:

_the police ineptitude
_the lack of laws designed for this sort of thing (such as a witness protection program for example)

However, the left wing of Greece (which is considerable) is very concerned about allowing such anti-terror laws since they will limit civil liberties. This sensitivity comes from the dictatorship years.

And yes the Greek government still plays anti-americanism as a way to cover up its own shortcomings in this issue as well as to bolster popularity amongst the left wing.

The CBS slander helped it big time.


The new develpopments on this front in Greece is that the new anti-terrorism legislation (that allows non civilians jury in cases of judicial cases of terrorism as well as the formation of a prototype witness protection program) has been passed.

I shall refrain from making comments on this info.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by MarkG
george bush wasnt afraid to see him though
or was he not warned about it by his staff?

well according to the media Simitis' visit to Bush was just protocol. The real issues will be discussed with Cheney. Who runs that country anyway?

[Bereta_Eder]

WASHINGTON, Jan 10 (Reuters) - U.S. President George W.
Bush is now two euros richer.
Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis on Thursday handed the
U.S. president two one-euro coins, newly issued by the European
Union as 12 of the 15 member states rolled out a common
currency on Jan. 1.
"This means a big bang I would say for Europe, because the
whole environment will change. There will be new feeling about
the possibilities of Europe," Simitis said as he met Bush in
the Oval Office.
The united currency may also lead to a "closer cooperation
with the United States in order to solve the common problems,"
he said.
Simitis is the first European Union leader to meet Bush
since the euro's introduction.
He also gave a Bush a T-shirt with an emblem of the 2004
summer Olympic Games in Athens, preparations for which have
been running behind schedule. "You can come and run with me,"
Simitis said to Bush, an avid runner.
"I don't think I can make the team," Bush said.
"It's going to be a magnificent moment for the sporting
world to have the Olympics return to Athens. I'm confident
your country will do a fine job," he said.
The president commended Simitis for an improvement in
Greek-Turkish relations, saying "the world is better off" as
tensions between the two historic rivals lessen, and said he
appreciated Greece's participation in the global war against
terrorism.
Simitis said it was important to address what he called
terrorism in the Balkans as part of the global anti-terror
effort.



If you read through the lines you'll see a clear amelioration of relations as well as mild warnings from Simitis side about the EU parameter in the relationship with the US as well as mild pressures by Bush in not stopping being "friendly" with Turkey.

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW I find it very frustrating that apart from being honest in the end and telling things how they are, not even one american has stepped forward and acknowledge the crimes the US has done to countries like Greece.

In retrospecte if Greece looked the other way while people wanted by the US traveled through her territory, how can this be compared with the US having destabilised Greece's democracy before?

Or looking the other way (at best) when Turkey invaded Cyprus?

How can those things be compared?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Would it be better if we let you be taken over by Communists? Be happy... see the comparisons of North and South Korea.

[axi]

I feel that the next target in America's war on terrorism will be Italy. Quadaffi's son just bought Juventus F.C.



Two euros and a T-shirt? Hell this is two euros more than what any of the Olympic "volunteers" will get as pay for their efforts...

The new develpopments on this front in Greece is that the new anti-terrorism legislation (that allows non civilians jury in cases of judicial cases of terrorism as well as the formation of a prototype witness protection program) has been passed.

Ask Abraham Lesperoglou about it. I guess that soon the courthouses will stop judging him not-guilty...

Lesperoglou, then a member of an anarchist group, has been accused of participating in the murder-robbery of a pharmacist in 1982, but, having gone to Palestine to help with the 1st Indifada, was condemned in absence. Ten years later he came back to Greece and was imprisoned, but he was found not-gulty in his appeal. Meanwhile, he was prosecuted for various other terrorist-related crimes that had occured in the same era and in every case he has been proven innocent. He has also been condemned in a military courhouse for skipping his military duty, but he has already served much more time than that penalty demands. He has been released this fall, but is still in danger of being imprisoned again. In all his trials, it is the civilian jury that has unanimously supported his innoccense, while the judges (whose votes count in the jury, 3/7 IIRC) have mostly supported his guilt.

Under such anti-terrorist laws, the police can plant a molotov in your backpack in some demo and voilà: there's a caught terrorist to please the Americans!

And one final comment:

I'm feeling SO anti-american right now

Take care not to tear your pantyhose!
(greek idiomatic phrase)

[DinoDoc]

Gah!

Originally posted by paiktis22
About the 17N I can see two reasons for not being apprehended so far:

_the police ineptitude
_the lack of laws designed for this sort of thing (such as a witness protection program for example)

Bangs head against wall. What the smurf have I been arguing with you about since this thread began if you agree with what I've been saying all along?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dino.. he just can't admit he agrees with an American

[axi]

Bangs head against wall. What the smurf have I been arguing with you about since this thread began if you agree with what I've been saying all along?

He has a double personality problem.

Just like PASOK, the governing party, which he undoubtedly votes for in the elections (closing his eyes, holding his breath and barely touching the envelope I presume, but with dedication no doubt).

During the 80's Papandreou's PASOK managed to be friends with Arafat and Quadaffi and at the same time they were friends with Reagan and Thatcher. And Simitis is the only head of state inside the "alliance anginst terrorism" that knows first hand what he's dealing with, since he has planted at least one bomb angainst the junta, in 1968. (In an ESSO-Pappas gas station: Pappas was a Greek-American businessman who was proven to be the middleman between the CIA and the junta.)

[Bereta_Eder]

lol, you'll be suprised if you knew what I voted

Okey dokey.

Isn't always demonizing the americans a bit over the top though?

I find this sort of behavior more than just a tad "provensial".

If it comes from the west, it's wrong. Everything that comes from the US is de facto blackmail and slander.

IIRC the policeman that was to take the motorcycle which was used in the killing of Saunders to the police research center, took extra care to clean all the dust from the seat before he handed it over...

When asked if it did ever cross his mind that what he did might have taken away crucial clues he responded that he didn't want to give it "dirty" to Scotland Yard...

Are we ever going to catch anybody with morons like this? (including all this new organised crime?)

Perhaps if the government (any government) actually tried to sort things out instead of using anti-americanism every time the people hear accusations about Greece things would be better for everyone.

Also how many people really know the facts about the anti-terrorism law? Ask anybody and he'll say it's american blackmail, it's bad. How many KNOW what this new law constitues?

Maybe if newspapers spent less time attacking the US and acting like revolutionaries against "american oppression" (TM) and spend more time analysing WITHOUT anti-american or any other bias what this law is about we would have a much more informed public?

And isn't schizophrenic that apparently everyone is conveinced this law is american - made fascism (without propably even knowing one clause of it) yet everyone is too happy to do nothing about it?

And how long are we going to be hunted by Junta phantasms?

If a cop still hasn't got the right to shoot without a... state attorney present to give the authorization, do you think he's any good?

It's so much easier just to feel proud of standing against the US than actually getting some real work done on modernizing and training our police...

When Miller's wife talked about the sex trade from eastern Europe going on in Greece all the media acted shocked and all they basically contributed to the case was saying" you are the US ambassador's wife so shut up". How constructive was that?

I wouldn't trust an american official as far as I can spit but on the same time I won't be listening to half arsed comments made by newspapers who don't have the first clue about what's going on.

You know how much easier it is writing an anti-american libel than actually doing some real research work?

About schizhophrenia, the whole Greece is so!

Shouting our mouths out againgst the US, EU or anything western, feeling "justification" by the killing of Saunders or the americans in the WTC, while at the same time happily eating EU funds and being under the protection of NATO?

Burning american flags for the bombings of Serbia and then giving all too happy the consent for it to go on?
Glorifying Milosevic and being in a state of complete denial that Serbia is capable of anything wrong and that is nothing more than a victim of western aggression and yet having Greek crews on AWACS duting the campain and opening up military ports and roads for the NATO troops to come through?

If this isn't hypocricy I don't know what is.

Are we part of the west or are we not?

Reality check: isn't the US, no matter how it has sucked in the past, a stabilizing factor between Greece and Turkey NOW?

Would we be better off outside of NATO?

Does the US and the UK have as their only purpose to screw us over in the euro-army or would you rather have 400 turkish F16s every day or even another hot incident in the Aegean would Turkey's positions had been casually thrown out by the west to the basket bin?

That's reality and we are stuck with it.

Noone wants our anihilation noone lives and dies by his only wish being to **** us up. It's all a matter of balance. Demonizing everything, throwing blankets over our heads and keep telling ourselves that we are the victims and the bad world is out to get us is just what OUR government wants.

Just a few thoughts from "the other side"


BTW Turks call Greece "the spoiled child of the West"; being able to do whatever mischief we want and still being forgiven and looked after by "daddy".... Maybe it's time we grow up?

[Roland]

Is there really a "Help me, I'm being oppressed" mentality in Greece (or the greek media) ?

[MarkG]

oppressed? no
there is "help me, i'm helping my allies but they are not helping me back" mentality

[Sikander]

A very interesting post Paiktis, I learned a lot from it. You are correct in assuming that we have no interest in fvcking you guys over, we have enough enemies without picking a fight for nothing.

The reason no American is willing to speak about the Junta, and whatever part in it America may have played is because most if not all of us know next to nothing about it. This is in part because any part played by the CIA is likely to be still classified, and because Greece is on our radar a lot less than similar situations which occurred to our south during the many years of the Cold War. I'm not trying to be glib or anything, but Americans have a lot more cultural ties to Central and South America and Western Europe than they do to the Balkans / Aegean.

It is certainly easy to blame powerful nations for your problems, and it is even sometimes accurate. You correctly point out though that it is counterproductive to assume that someone else has the initiative and power over you and the inclination to use it against you. This is a problem we see all too often in the Moslem world. Why are people in Saudi Arabia more worried about Islam's third holiest site than they are about the fact that they live on a sea of oil and are still poor and oppressed? The Moslem world in general, and the Arabs in particular have obsessed about being screwed over, and have let the world surpass them in every measure of economy and freedom. It's good to see that Greece hasn't followed that example, and (with some exceptions like Axi ) embraced economic growth and freedom.

With the Cold War over our (Greece - USA) importance to one another geopolitically has lessened. This is a two-edged sword, in that there is less binding us together, but we are also free to be frank with one another and let our relationship float to it's natural level. We don't have to prop up your weak pro-western political parties with secret money, and you can't blame your crappy governments on us anymore, and can instead hold them accountable. We will still try to keep the peace between you and Turkey, as we are trying to do the same between India and Pakistan. Hopefully this will succeed in both instances.