Marijuana Legalization - Why Not?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Dr Strangelove -

Yeah, barrooms are full of potsmokers getting into brawls. Since you've acknowledged that many people who use drugs use multiple drugs, just how do you know it's the marijuana that is "implicated"?



Ramo has already refuted your claim that crime didn't increase. But according to Commerce Dept statistics posted here a while back in a similar debate, alcohol consumption did increase.



No one here even compared pre-prohibition and prohibition crime rates. I have mentioned in past debates that the murder rate dropped 13 years in a row following the repeal of prohibition and the stats Ramo posted support that claim.



There was a clear decrease after prohibition using stats from the 20's and 30's, explain that one away.



And yet you would have us compare stats from 1905 with 1935? Ramo offered stats including prohibition and post-prohibition years.



So they had no national crime statistics prior to 1920 but they had deaths from liver disease? Where is your source? The Commerce Dept stats show per capita alcohol consumption increased during prohibition.



It must be blissful to discard rebuttals with accusations of deceit. Why are we to trust anything you claim based on government data since government wants these drugs to remain illegal?



While you accuse the anti-prohibition crowd of playing nasty tricks for not citing statistics from 1900-1910, in the next breath you tell us stats prior to 1920 are unreliable.



Which would mean the stats from 1920 on are more accurate. And those stats refute your claim that crime did not increase under prohibition because they clearly show an enormous drop in homocide rates after prohibition was repealed. I'd love to hear you explain why crime rates have been so much higher since the late 60's when Nixon began the drug war.

Sikander -

Source?

Gareth -

So you're claiming marijauna has a similar
impact on reflexes as alcohol? You can't be serious! And claiming marijuana has a similar impact on the lungs as tobacco is also preposterous unless you mean only by consuming roughly equal amounts and not comparing the typical pot smoker with the typical cigarette smoker - a joint or two a day compared to 1 to 2 packs a day.
Of course, pot smokers on average don't smoke nearly as long as cigarette smokers so it's no surprise it's the tobacco users who die in such amazing numbers while the prohibitionists cannot point to anyone who actually died from a pot-related disease.



Oh nonsense, most pot users do not indulge like you claim to do. In fact, I've never heard of anyone who consumed as much pot as you.



Freedom - darn right!



Selfish? You are the one who wants to steal our money - "taxes" - to put millions of people in cages for failing to get your permission to ingest their own property!
And you accuse your victims of being selfish? Might as well say, "I want to rule the country, and you'll are selfish for opposing me".

I've known a couple of kids who "banged" away at each other while under the influence of pot, but no other substance. A case in which a twenty something dispatched two teens here recently comes to mind. There wasn't any conflict over money, the guy just thought that they were plotting against him. Almost anyone who has worked in the medical community is going to be able to cite similar such cases.

I've seen some of the literature put out by the anti-prohibition groups in the late 20's and early 30's. The statisitics put out by the Department of Commerce that the Schaffer site refers to weren't available at the time, so what the anti-Prohibition groups did is compare various state and city statisitics prior to 1920 to the FBI statistics which became available in the 1920s.

I'd also like to point out that the source referrenced by the Schaffer site is probably worthless without a publication date, and I'm wondering when did the Commerce department take on the function of compiling crime statisitics? Did the great J. Edgar Hoover, so famous for his jealous protection of his political fiefdom, actually allow another Federal department to get away with encroaching on his territory?

If you look closely at the statistics shown on the Schaffer site you might notice that the homicide wave actually peaked nearly two years after the repeal of prohibition. Could it be that the wave of crime in the late 20s and early 30s was actually more fueled by the depression than by prohibition?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Sikander -

Source?

In Marijuana: Drugs of Abuse, Volume I, Mark S. Gold, MD, writes "individuals may use marijuana in the mistaken belief that it will help them sleep or that it will relieve their depression, but in reality marijuana has been shown to cause insomnia and depression" (Plenum Medical Book Company, New York and London, 1989, p. 87). He also states, "marijuana dependency may masquerade as a wide variety of complaints. Most of them are non-specific-- sleeplessness, depression that may range from mild to severe, ..." (p. 96). He notes that "patients often cite depression as a reason for their marijuana use, without realizing that depression is a common consequence of marijuana use.... Marijuana addicts...appear to use the drug in spite of worsening depression, even though they often report a dysphoric response to marijuana inhalation or ingestion" (p. 100). Dr. Gold reports, "Dependence may result in a number of withdrawal symptoms after cessation of marijuana use, including anxiety, depression, sleep and appetite disturbances, irritability, tremors, diaphoresis, nausea, muscle convulsions, and restlessness" (p.103).

-----


Roger L. Gould, M.D.,

chronic use of marijuanna can definitely lead to depression. there are several very real mechanisms. One is biochemical..there is a big. shift in the biological systems that control mood. Secondly, you lose momentum in your life. Its important to be in touch with your passions and ambitions and if you continually dull them rather than process them into realistic achievements, you wake up depressed for the lost time, and where you are in life.


-------

From The Cannibas Information Network's page on using medicinal marijuana:

http://www.marijuana-hemp.com/cin/medicinal/champ.shtml

Depression:
Excessive daily use of marijuana can lead to depression, lethargy, and a feeling of the "blahs." Some people use the drug to constantly "escape" from the mundane world. People with a tendency toward depression should be careful when using marijuana as it can make some depression symptoms worse.
If you are taking anti-depressants and the medications is controlling your symptoms, then moderate use of marijuana should pose no problem.
If depression worsens, you should consult with your physician about changing dosage or type of anti-depressant and possibly reducing the amount of marijuana consumed. There is an equal chance that marijuana will help your depression.


------------

This has been a pretty boring search, in large part because anecdotal evidence abounds as do plenty of propoganda sites. I gave up after 5 pages of Google results. There is little doubt that there is a correlation between marijuana and depression, the only true debate is which came first. Do depressed people seek to self-medicate with marijuana, or do marijuana users get depressed from using it. My best guess is that both are true, and which is true for a particular person depends on their own brain chemistry.

I have seen everyday smokers function perfectly all of the way through college and med school, but I have not seen anyone who used marijuana at that rate who is doing well after 10+ years. They may be minimally funcional, but they are all depressed and tend to have a much lower level social and emotional life than people I know who never used drugs, or those who still dabble in them from time to time but don't use every day. This is of course anecdotal, but I bet there are many people who would tell you the same stories about their friends and aquaintances.

[faded glory]

First of all......I echo the sentiment of Gareth. To have you Glonk, sit there and say

Gareth: Weed is only addictive in the sense that alcohol is addictive. Some people use it as some kind of emotional shield or something, it's not biologically addictive.

is utterly absurd. Addiction is addiction. I spent MANY days at school with my head on the desk waiting for class to end so I could find my friends and smoke a blunt. Why!? Because I hated the low...On the otherside of the coin, when I was 16 I would roll into work late after closing my room and baking it out all night or at a party with my friends. I was never 100% during these times.....yes 70%, 80%, never 100%.

And you also said,

Okay, so now explain to me this: Why should WE suffer because you aren't emotionally mature enough to deal with your problems properly?

It is now clear at this point that you do not or have not smoked very much. If you have any foresight into what this stuff does after 2-3 years, twice a day, 7 a week. You would know thata the detachment from weed is a HUGE cause of depression.

Should we ban cars incase some dumbass decides to drive one through a mall and run people over?

Well..so because you are allowed to get drunk means you are allowed to be a Coke-head or Heroin-fiend? No......you dont give up.......you fight these things. For Christ sakes!? How stupid are you??? I can tbelieve im argueing this with a teenager. You are young kiddo...you have no, I repeatNO idea what the repricussions of this are later in your life! Sure your friends will tell you things......you might know a few old guys who smoked pot in the 70's who are alive and well. That means nothing...Depression is undetectable and most likely people wouldnt make the connection.

Having it illegal obviously isn't stopping you anyway, so explain to me again what we lose by legalizing it?

Why dont you understand this point of view on the Gun Debate threads?

Mine is? Isn't yours the one "you should ban it because people like myself abuse it out of emotional problems?"

See above.....

heyyy, now you're getting it!

Irresponsible.....

I toy with this idea alot, but I know no good would come of it. Our society can't handle it.

Agree we have got enough drunks and idiots. Do we really need more????......also see above

[connorkimbro]

Irresponsible.....

Opinion. Everyone has one, you're entitled to your own. Smoking pot may be irresponsible, i'm not judging that.

Allowing people the freedom to excercise their OWN opinions is not irresponsible.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by connorkimbro

Irresponsible.....

Allowing people the freedom to excercise their OWN opinions is not irresponsible.

Typical "I have nothing else to say so I will throw in the democracy card" liberal-pansy-ass response.

This thread is littered with reason's why it cant and shouldnt be done...

take your pick

[connorkimbro]

Typical "I have nothing else to say so I will throw in the democracy card" liberal-pansy-ass response.

This thread is littered with reason's why it cant and shouldnt be done...

Pah. It's also now littered with ad hominim attacks. I'm anything but a liberal.

As to reasons with legalization can't and shouldn't be done, the thread is also littered why it can and SHOULD be done. Likely, you don't agree with them.

Good thing we live in a country where people are allowed to disagree, eh? I'm only fighting for the right for people to act and choose for themselves, based on those disagreements.

[faded glory]

Well......if its Tim's "God given right" to become addicted to heroin. And we shouldnt interfere with that.....or try and stop him in anyway.

Why the hell should I, as a taxpayer pay for him to get rehabilitated?

You see? Legalization will create 10 fold the problems we have today.....


Im also fed up with peopl talking about how much money we use on the War on drugs. We spend less than 50 million a years. I dont have a calculator on hand, but thats about .3% of the federal budget... hardly a waste considering the cost's of other astronomical things the government spends on...

Im sure its more with prison's and all...but somebody has to take out the trash.

[Gareth Edmunson]

Faded Glory: Finally someone who has actually smoked weed more than once!

Asher: Are you beginning to get the feeling that you don't really have any idea what you're talking about? Try smoking weed for an extended period of time and then come back and tell us if you feel the same.

Its been 5 days since my last smoke, and even though I don't want to smoke, I crave it intensely. If you put a joint in front of me I would smoke it no question. The only reason I can manage to not smoke right now is because I'm home for Christmas and have no weed.

I went to the doctor earlier today and got 2 vaccinations, but for the life of me I can't remember what they were for. I'd be pressed to tell you what I did for the past 2 months for that matter.

And don't call it irresponsibility, Asher. Nobody wants to become addicted. No one plans to get addicted. Arrogant prick...

[faded glory]

Asher watches to many late night Movie's about addicts on HBO (ya...the ones where they try and say its a glamourous and independant lifestyle)




Hey Gareth. Thanks for the bone man...ya I got off actually cause I just smoked more ciggarrettes. The attachment is bad...granted, a few days without can make even a strong man break-down and cry about how life isnt fair.

It did ruin alot of good things. If I had to guess.....from 7th grade to 11th grade, I spent well over 20,000 dollars on weed. Thats alot of money for someone who stripped pallettes for 3.50 an hour for 10 hours a day and swindled as much as possible from his parents and friends! Really suprised I never got caught...actually.

A few times I can remember doing stupid **** like smoking leaves when I had no weed. And a had the ill audacity to bum like 20.00$ from my varouis high School girlfriend's occassionaly!Or once...actually twice stealing a few bucks from a car via breaking a window to get to the change jar when I was in Rocky Point doing what else.....preparing to get high!

Ya It was crazy ****. I wouldnt want to relive it if you paid me! My math skills hurt the worst. How can someone who passed alegbra I in 8th grade with a C- fail the next 3 Math classes he takes?

hey Gareth......ever notice your reactions were totally gone? A bomb could go off behind you...normally a person would react with that heart thud. Ugh.....that seemed to be missing from the equasion:

hey buddy there is light at the end of the tunnel tho. Take up Ciggarrette smoking. Heavy Menthol's like newports. and keep your mind off of it....

Ugh...im not even going to mention the smell it left on some of my favorite clothes

[faded glory]

Ok thought about it...my figures are exaggerated. It didnt even make that much...I only worked weekday's and summers.

But still.....ide have to say 10,000-15,000 spent on weed. Thats alot.

[Gareth Edmunson]

Faded Glory: No problem man, and thanks for the kind words. I totally see where you're coming from, and yeah, a nuclear explosion could go off right next to me and maybe 5 minutes later I'd be like "hey, what happened?".

I have a question for you though, how did you manage to get to sleep when you stopped? I can't sleep for anything anymore. Thats the worst part of quitting. I can't sleep without weed, and without it, the only way I can find to get to sleep is by staying up to some absurd hour like 5 or 6am until I'm exhausted and just fall asleep. But that sucks. There must be a better way.

That and the worrying. All I do is worry now about the dumbest things when I'm not high. Well, they're not dumb, usually has to do with women, but it wouldn't have normally kept me up or make me worry all the time. When I worry its like there's this pit in my stomach and it won't go away. I hate it. I wish I could gut out my stomach so I wouldn't have to feel the pit.

I'll smoke just for that and the sleeping. Of course they're related though.

Did you find the same things happening to you?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
Asher: Are you beginning to get the feeling that you don't really have any idea what you're talking about? Try smoking weed for an extended period of time and then come back and tell us if you feel the same.

Try drinking alcohol for extended periods of time and then come back and tell us if you feel the same.

I've done it on and off since 11th grade, and I don't suffer any longterm sideeffects from it. You guys can keep saying that its ignorant of me or whatever because you two can't control how much you do at a time and did suffer some longterm effects from it if you really want. But I've not had any problems with it, nor anyone I know that uses it in moderation. You're what's called a "pothead", and yeah, the reason you probably have trouble remembering things is you were f*cked up in the first place.

And don't call it irresponsibility, Asher. Nobody wants to become addicted. No one plans to get addicted. Arrogant prick...

I'm an arrogant ***** for wanting a drug legalized, when you're against it because you abuse it? You still use the **** anyway, I don't understand why you're so against making it legal when you're using it regardless?

For every substance out there, there will be some people who abuse it. Perscription medicine, alcohol, weed, etc. If you're going to ban one, ban them all.

Asher watches to many late night Movie's about addicts on HBO (ya...the ones where they try and say its a glamourous and independant lifestyle)

What the hell? I never said being addicted was glamourous at all. Nor did I even COMMENT on the lifestyle. I only said some people can't handle the responsibility of it well and become addicted to it. And yes, damnit, I know "nobody wants to become addicted", but if you do become addicted, you f*cking do something about it. That's why it's irresponsible.

Both of you are (were?) potheads. There's alcholics too, does that mean alcohol should be made illegal? You call me arrogant, then you come here and act like everybody becomes addicted upon use, when the vast majority of people don't. I guess the term isn't just arrogant, but egocentric. The sad thing is, the people addicted to it will use it whether it's legal or not anyway...

[Gareth Edmunson]

Originally posted by Asher

Try drinking alcohol for extended periods of time and then come back and tell us if you feel the same.

Um, I thought we made it clear that the effects of alcohol and pot are entirely different! I drink, and I've drunk for extended periods of time. In fact, I've used alcohol as a means of getting off pot...I figured if I'm drunk I won't want weed. It just makes you hung over, the effects aren't long lasting. How many times do you need to be told this?

I've done it on and off since 11th grade, and I don't suffer any longterm sideeffects from it.

So that means you've done it for a year? If that? And the key phrase there is on and off. Again, try smoking for extended periods of time.

I'm an arrogant ***** for wanting a drug legalized, when you're against it because you abuse it? You still use the **** anyway, I don't understand why you're so against making it legal when you're using it regardless?

Yeah, its called addiction. You can't seem to get this through your head.

For every substance out there, there will be some people who abuse it. Perscription medicine, alcohol, weed, etc. If you're going to ban one, ban them all.

Another blanket statement for when you have no argument.

What the hell? I never said being addicted was glamourous at all. Nor did I even COMMENT on the lifestyle. I only said some people can't handle the responsibility of it well and become addicted to it. And yes, damnit, I know "nobody wants to become addicted", but if you do become addicted, you f*cking do something about it. That's why it's irresponsible.

Do what, like detox? Not all of us can afford that luxory. The rest of us are forced to get off it the hard way, which is long and usually not without permanent damage of some kind. Whether it be physical or relational or both.

Both of you are (were?) potheads. There's alcholics too, does that mean alcohol should be made illegal? You call me arrogant, then you come here and act like everybody becomes addicted upon use, when the vast majority of people don't. I guess the term isn't just arrogant, but egocentric. The sad thing is, the people addicted to it will use it whether it's legal or not anyway...

Stop comparing it to booze, jesus. Its different.

Basically what it comes down to is you have no idea what a low is, you don't have these kind of lows with alcohol, just hangovers. Which is good for your sake. I guess its a good thing for you that you really don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to this ****.

My writing is getting sloppier because I'm tired. I should be sleeping but I can't. Do you know why?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
So that means you've done it for a year? If that? And the key phrase there is on and off. Again, try smoking for extended periods of time.

Couple years, now.

Yeah, its called addiction. You can't seem to get this through your head.

The vast majority of the people I know aren't addicted.
It's not addictive like nicotine is addictive, we already established this.
You want it to be made illegal on the grounds that you and faded glory became addicted to it, while the majority of the others who tried it have not. That's where our beliefs differ.

Do what, like detox? Not all of us can afford that luxory. The rest of us are forced to get off it the hard way, which is long and usually not without permanent damage of some kind. Whether it be physical or relational or both.

How about family? Friends? I dunno, I live in a country called Canada. And the government steps in to help people that are addicted...

Basically what it comes down to is you have no idea what a low is, you don't have these kind of lows with alcohol, just hangovers. Which is good for your sake. I guess its a good thing for you that you really don't know what you're talking about. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to this ****.

There are people who, amazingly enough, have the same problem with things such as the internet. They suffer withdrawl and "lows" while not being online. Let's ban the internet too. I understand what addiction means and what it can do to you, and you've been unfortunate enough to become addicted to weed, but other people become addicted to alcohol, the internet, whathaveyou. And yes, damnit, I know alcohol and the internet don't have real long term problems, but they do. Alcohol abuse destroys your liver, your relations with people. Internet abuse destroys your life completely, while you're physically more or less the same. There's always a chance of addiction with any substance.

My writing is getting sloppier because I'm tired. I should be sleeping but I can't. Do you know why?

Because you're an insomniac like me?

[faded glory]

"I'll smoke just for that and the sleeping. Of course they're related though.

Did you find the same things happening to you?"


Yes...although not anymore. But I could never sleep when I was stoned....cause it felt like you were being pulled under the bed . But after I quit I had that same problem...
for about say 4-5 months.

"Both of you are (were?) potheads. There's alcholics too, does that mean alcohol should be made illegal? You call me arrogant, then you come here and act like everybody becomes addicted upon use, when the vast majority of people don't. I guess the term isn't just arrogant, but egocentric. The sad thing is, the people addicted to it will use it whether it's legal or not anyway..."

Ya.....we both used it everyday. I dont know how much he smokes a day. But I would of course.....had a small little group of friends I used to smoke with. So when one of them had weed...we all reaped the bounty. So twice a day sounds about right. And about two Blunts is there. I never liked bongs...to harsh on the throat.


"The vast majority of the people I know aren't addicted. "

Oh realllllllllllly Most of the people who smoke ciggarrettes claim not to be addicted. Yet they stop? Watch what happens...


"How about family? Friends? I dunno, I live in a country called Canada. And the government steps in to help people that are addicted... "

Ya ours does too moron. Only 9/10 will walk away cause they are so addicted/attached.


"Alcohol abuse destroys your liver, your relations with people. Internet abuse destroys your life completely, while you're physically more or less the same. There's always a chance of addiction with any substance. "

I hate to burst your bubble. But Marijuana smokers take in 11 times the Carbon Dioxide (think thats the one) than ciggarrette smokers. It is more deadly...if not deadlier. Also Marijuana is a big contributer to COPD and Chronic Bronchitus. Unrelated to marjiuana, i have the latter. Which is not cool...


"You want it to be made illegal on the grounds that you and faded glory became addicted to it, while the majority of the others who tried it have not. That's where our beliefs differ. "

Your talking out yer arse again! Why is it just me and gareth? I can probably pick hundreds of thousands of people of out of the trom-head crowd who ended up feeling like we did! So it isnt just us being idiots.....its just you being extremely naive.



"I've done it on and off since 11th grade, and I don't suffer any longterm sideeffects from it"

Bullsh1t......would you say anything if you did? What does it matter.....I have my doubts this claim itself, is factual. How much do you smoke a day? a week? Im not talking about the occassional joint on your birthday! That totally doesnt count...