The future of the EU

[Hoek]

Campaign against the Kurds? You reveal your ignorance of the situation. They fought the Kurds the same way we are fighting al Queda. What are the human rights abuses? What international laws did they violate? How is it a military dictatorship. If you can't get over your nonsensical anti-Turk prejudices, you shouldn't make non-specific statements.

[Solly]

"We are giving this trillion dollar bill to our allies who fought so poorly and gave up so readily." That is generally the feeling towards Europe.

WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN BY THIS?? - The American contribution to the Allies effort in WW2 was the third most important one.

[Roland]

"The point about the Marshall Plan is that Europe and the U.S. were not equals."

You're getting all hooked up about a lousy 15 billion $ you have to europe after ****ing up the continent by getting into WWI and creating the great depression ? Hey we're funding a big chunk of your 450 billion $ account deficit.

"That is generally the feeling towards Europe."

And that is a reason why Americans have a bad reputation in Europe. But hey, compared to the attitude of the rest of the world against you, you are welcome here.

[Hoek]

So the Turks are ignorant, are they? Nice.

The difference between U.S. and EU oil supplies is significant: the U.S. still supplies 50% of its own oil. How much does the EU produce?

The third most important one? Oh, so I suppose all your fine soldiers and commanders could have handled themselves if we had not given you a hand?

[Hoek]

And I suppose the Marshall Plan didn't do much good for Europe either. All you guys could have handled your own economies without our help just fine.

[Roland]

"Campaign against the Kurds? You reveal your ignorance of the situation."

No, actually you are showing that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

"They fought the Kurds the same way we are fighting al Queda."

By outlawing the kurdish language even for private purposes ?

"What are the human rights abuses?"

Extrajudicial killings, torture, summary punishment, unlawful arrests, lack of judicial review, death squads. For a start.

"What international laws did they violate?"

The european convention on human rights, maybe ?

"How is it a military dictatorship."

Half. Do you know the influence of the military via the national security council and the state security courts ? The permanent threat of a coup to maintain Kemalist principles ?

"If you can't get over your nonsensical anti-Turk prejudices, you shouldn't make non-specific statements."

If you only had a freakin' clue.

[Roland]

"The difference between U.S. and EU oil supplies is significant: the U.S. still supplies 50% of its own oil. How much does the EU produce?"

Oh cute. About 25 %. But in that context, maybe north sea oil is a better measure. That amounts to roughly 50 % of european consumption.

"And I suppose the Marshall Plan didn't do much good for Europe either. All you guys could have handled your own economies without our help just fine."

If there had been free capital markets, yes. European GDP from 1948-1952 was maybe 500 billion $. The 15 billion $ from the Marshall plan were predominantly needed to cover current account deficits. Non-participants like east germany or Czechoslovacia showed a strong recovery as well - the real divergence came a bit later when communist planning failed.

[DanS]

"How about Mexico ?"

Sure. If they petition for statehood (or petition for 4 states for instance), we might be able to work something out. But there are sensitivities south of the border that make such a petition unlikely at the moment.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Hoek
Campaign against the Kurds? You reveal your ignorance of the situation. They fought the Kurds the same way we are fighting al Queda. What are the human rights abuses? What international laws did they violate? How is it a military dictatorship. If you can't get over your nonsensical anti-Turk prejudices, you shouldn't make non-specific statements.

I cannot answer because I am very busy at the moment. But I will say this. It is you who are completely igorant. And your ignorance is bloody because it allows the suffering of people like the kurds to go on.

You are as guilty as the turks for the bloodbath of the kurds.

And you call me prejudiced. You sicken me by your igorance on important humanitarian issues. (edited because I am a good natured person basically)

bye.

[Roland]

"If they petition for statehood (or petition for 4 states for instance), we might be able to work something out."

Good. But you'd require some conditions to be met, would you not ? Like accepting the Bill of Rights.

Mexico has made a big leap forward esp. after the PRI got ousted. The biggest institutional problem with Turkey is the political role of the military though, and as they don't stand in elections...

[DanS]

Wrt the Turkish military, I view their role as quite a mixed bag. They have ensured a secular government, for instance.

"Good. But you'd require some conditions to be met, would you not ? Like accepting the Bill of Rights."

Well, most of that stuff has been settled long ago and its manifestations are fairly discrete. I don't think you could make the same claim for the EU. You guys are going into a constitutional convention, after all. Sort of making it up as you go along (this is not at all a criticism of the EU, but a natural piece of working with something new).

But anyway, we certainly wouldn't claim Mexico's rights to regulate use of the death penalty, for instance (to not have it, in Mexico's case).

[Hoek]

Would you please give a time frame for these abuses? The EU convention on human rights is not recognized as international law for countries outside the EU, and Turkey is not part of the EU. It is a misnomer to call it a campaign against the Kurds, just as it would be a misnomer to call the war against terrorism a war agains Arabs. Both are anti-terror campaigns, and you will note that now that Ocalan is in a jail cell in the middle of the sea, the terror has subsided. Do you have any idea how many Turks died at the hands of terrorists? Imporant humanitarian issues? Like the treatment of Turkish immigrants in Germany? Like the treatment of Gypsies in all European countries? Like the latent racism in France, Germany, England, Italy, and Spain against Muslims and blacks?

The North Sea? So, you mean...Norway? Well, Norway isn't in the EU, and isn't interested in it. The issue is control of resources, and the EU can't be viable without the ability to control a significant amount of resources.

The Marshall Plan alone was extremely significant in rebuilding industry. Considering how ass-backwards your economies were at the time (I notice your baseline figure was '48, not '45), it was extremely significant. Not to mention the ****ty shape all of your militaries were. Had the U.S. not given protection to European countries over the past 60 years, do you really think you could have had decent economies, much less remained independent countries? Same thing in Japan: economic development is alot easier when you don't have to worry about defending yourself.

Attitudes towards the U.S. are bad around that world? That's funny, because last time I checked, people all around the world wait for years for U.S. visas, and those who can't wait come here illegally. You Europeans just have a rough time not being the big shots for the first time in History. You think Europe was equal to the United States? That is such a laugh. The U.S. economy was half of the entire world economy immediately following the war, so don't even try it.

[DanS]

"Would you please give a time frame for these abuses? The EU convention on human rights is not recognized as international law for countries outside the EU, and Turkey is not part of the EU."

Hoek: actually, Turkey has been in on the European human rights stuff from the beginning, IIRC.

[Hoek]

Of course, and so would Turkey need to accept the EU constitution, but they are not being considered in the next round of expansion, and indeed, their prospects for membership always seem just over the next hill. Offer them membership with specific requirements, and they'll meet them.

[Hoek]

Stew:

WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN BY THIS?? - The American contribution to the Allies effort in WW2 was the third most important one.

So what, exactly, were the first and second most imporant contributions? Britain was ready to give up by '41, and Russia would have lost without a second front. Oh, also, lend-lease gave both of them both free weapons.

The U.S. was the arsenal of democracy, and Britain and France were the cannon fodder of democracy. When was the last time France has actually won a war? I think it's been >200 years (the American Revolution). They are the most ******** soldiers in the world.