The future of the EU

[Hoek]

Tunisia is not a democracy at all, though it is a free country. It could easily be a democracy if so inclined since it has all the necessary prerequisites for a democracy.

Those are trade matters, not regulatory matters per se. The EU only has some authority over international (within Europe, at least) trade, and their regulation of telecom and such extends only to international matters. They have no regulatory authority over national industries or companies. What is regulatory? It means that the government gets to tell a company how to run a business and has the ability to do things such as fine, shut down, force changes, or subsidize the company.

Yes, Russia is heterogenous, but most of the people are very nationalistic.

[Hoek]

This american obsession with Turkey is quite strange...

Explain. Why should we not like Turkey? It is a westernized muslim democracy that has proven one of our most important allies. They have been a stalwart against radicalism and have never let us down. Why does Europe not care about Turkey? My guess is that because it is muslim.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Hoek


When Greece came into the EU, it was just as far as Turkey is now.

This is preposterous.

[Roland]

"Those are trade matters, not regulatory matters per se. The EU only has some authority over international (within Europe, at least) trade, and their regulation of telecom and such extends only to international matters."

That's a quite odd definition. But be that as it may...

http://www.europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/reg/en_register_132060.html

Leaving soft law aside, look at the body of regulations, directives and decisions in the telco area. Those are all "international" matters ?

"It means that the government gets to tell a company how to run a business and has the ability to do things such as fine, shut down, force changes..."

There is a lot of such EU legislation, just that most enforcement is done nationally. If you want direkt enforcement, ok. Then competition policy is such a sector.

"or subsidize the company"

Or have the power to review and forbid every national subsidy ?

[DanS]

Roland: Pipelines. Turkey has at least two oil pipelines. IIRC, the pipeline from Iraq has been mostly shut down. But there are also significant reserves in Azerbaijan. It has to be brought out some way. All roads lead through Turkey or Russia.

"This american obsession with Turkey is quite strange..."

Having Turkey in the Western fold has proven immensely valuable so far. This "obsession" is a recognition of that fact. I guess the fear on my part is that the EU will hamhandedly snub Turkey, even though the issues can be worked out (Greece, Kurds).

"That's called candidate status, and that's what Turkey's got. Actually this has been pretty clear ever since the association agreement of the early 80s."

I have my doubts as to whether Europeans want Turkey as part of the EU. Are those doubts unfounded?

[Roland]

Originally posted by Hoek

Why does Europe not care about Turkey? My guess is that because it is muslim.

I guess that's why the EU has a free trade agreement, grants special status to turkish citizens in the EU, granted candidate status, has a support program for reforms...

But currently Turkey is a half military dicatorship with a horrible human rights record, a total disregard for any rule of law and a totally ****ed economy. And until that has changed, accession is not possible.

Dan:

"Pipelines. Turkey has at least two oil pipelines."

We don't necessarily need Turkey as a member just to have people sell us oil. Also, north sea, russian and north african oil are quite important, too.

"Having Turkey in the Western fold has proven immensely valuable so far."

Yes. Just EU membership is different from having it "in the fold".

"Are those doubts unfounded?"

See above. If Turkey meets the requirements there is no turning back. But currently things could break down, as Turkey fails to deal with its economic crisis and constitutional and security apparatus reforms are stuck.

[Hoek]

Free trade and aid are one thing, acceptance as an equal is another. You think the U.S. ever wanted Europe to become part of the U.S. just because we gave you guys a bunch of money? My guess is that our attitude towards Europe is roughly equal to our Europe's attitude towards Turkey: these people don't deserve our assistance. The arguments against admitting North African countries in follows the same logic: their "culture" is too significantly different. Which means " we don't want to be associated with these muslims, they're not in our league."

[Roland]

"You think the U.S. ever wanted Europe to become part of the U.S. just because we gave you guys a bunch of money?"

Do you think France wanted you to be a part of the Kingdom just because they supported you with troops ?

"My guess is that our attitude towards Europe is roughly equal to our Europe's attitude towards Turkey: these people don't deserve our assistance."

Assistance ? What are you talking about ?

[Solly]

The arguments against admitting North African countries in follows the same logic: their "culture" is too significantly different. Which means " we don't want to be associated with these muslims, they're not in our league."

Last time you checked, was North Africa in Europe?

[Roland]

I'm still waiting for the Philippines to apply for becoming part of the US...

[DanS]

"If Turkey meets the requirements there is no turning back. But currently things could break down, as Turkey fails to deal with its economic crisis and constitutional and security apparatus reforms are stuck."

Again, I wonder whether those requirements will be a moving target. Turkey, the perennial bride being stood up at the altar. Most of the Europeans in this thread have made BS excuses about Turkey not being geographically European. Given this type of common argument, are these American and Turkish fears irrational?

"We don't necessarily need Turkey as a member just to have people sell us oil."

No. You're wrong. As a potential superpower, you have to secure those supplies, territory, and people for the free world. It's a bigger game going on here.

"Yes. Just EU membership is different from having it "in the fold"."

I don't think so. I doubt Turkey views it that way. The US doesn't.

"I'm still waiting for the Philippines to apply for becoming part of the US..."

Well, we would definitely consider a statehood request from Puerto Rico...

[Hoek]

Considering the XYZ affair, yes. Besides that, if you look at the involvement of the European powers in the American revolution, they all extracted land from England after their defeat. The point about Turkey is that aid to them does not constitute acceptance as an equal who "deserves" EU membership. The point about the Marshall Plan is that Europe and the U.S. were not equals. You should see the "trillion dollar bill" episode of the simpons: "We are giving this trillion dollar bill to our allies who fought so poorly and gave up so readily." That is generally the feeling towards Europe. Difference? Turkey is deserving of EU help.

[Hoek]

Puerto Rico is a freeloader. It gets all the benefits of being U.S. territory with none of the responsibilities. It should either be a state or independent.

[Bereta_Eder]

Are the statements about major huma rights abuses, campaigns against the kurds, not respecting international law, being a half military dictatorship and having a very bad economy fall on deaf ears to you DanS?

You act like yo didn;t hear them and just mention the "geographic position of Turkey"

[Roland]

"Again, I wonder whether those requirements will be a moving target."

They have been refined at a Kopenhagen summit for enlargement in general, so movement is quite limited.

"Most of the Europeans in this thread have made BS excuses about Turkey not being geographically European."

Most ?
Anyway, the EU is according to its "constitution" open for accession by european countries. Turkey has been considered european - otherwise it would not have candidate status.

"No. You're wrong. As a potential superpower, you have to secure those supplies, territory, and people for the free world."

Why superpower ? For what ? Who tells us "we have" to ? Why would it not be ok just to have Turkey in NATO ? Why does the US not secure a lot of oil by making Saudi Arabia the 51st US state then ?

"I don't think so. I doubt Turkey views it that way. The US doesn't."

The US is a bit ignorant about the level of EU integration on the one side, and has an interest in Turkey as a stumbling block against further integration on the other.
As for Turkey... I do not think the turkish elite, not to mention most turks, are aware what limitations to sovereignty and requirements EU membership actually means. I wouldn't be surprised to see a referendum on accession fail.

"Well, we would definitely consider a statehood request from Puerto Rico..."

How about Mexico ?