What is your favorite form of government?

[Peets]

Originally posted by Seeker
Well we already had a thread on Utopian systems many moons ago so I picked a real world system.


With a little electoral and parliamentary reform, a Consitutional Monarchy is best in the real world.

If I'm right (may be wrong) but isn't Belgium this way?
I must say our goverment is very bad...

[Joe R. Golowka]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Joe:

Anarchy doesn't do that you mumbling fool! It doesn't cause anything to grow...

It does in real life.

instead it causes violence.

Not in real life. The Fascist states you defend have been massively violent. Actual anarchist societies throughout history (there have been many) have been much more peacefull then authoritarian ones.

Somalia is the classic case of this.

Somalia is an example of a capitalist country in a civil war, NOT anarchy.

And anarchy does not work in my own country. It can't.

It did in 1936.

My people back a capitalist system and always have.

They didn't for the thousands of years prior to capitalism. And they didn't in 1936.

They were imprisoned by the paramilitary murderous stalinist republican forces and they broke free from that. BTW, I am part Catalonian and part Castile-Leónian. So I would just shut your mouth when it comes talking about my country.

LOL. Youv'e obviously been taught a lot of revisionist history. That's not surprising, there's a lot of Americans who have funny ideas about American history too. Just cause you have genes in common with the people wer'e talking about doesn't change the fact that your'e an ignorant idiot.

[faded glory]

Look Joe,

Just because you claim Anarchy will solve most of the worlds problems, is a matter of your biased opinion and not fact.


Why is anarchy special? Cause if you didnt like your boss, you and a couple of co-workers can swing by his house and Lynch him?Appoint a new one next week, then hang him? Or because you can seemingly get away with anything? Drug-Smuggling, Rape, hell.....anything! Since theres NO law enforcement institution No doubt Gianie is right. Anarchy leads to Somalia...Kabul 1995...There is a massive power vacuum there and EVERY little group/gang will try and fill it in. No matter what your perception of anarchy maybe, this is a fact.


I also find it odd that the people who Support the "Workers" so dearly, dont even work/are college students!

[Joe R. Golowka]

Originally posted by faded glory
You've answered my question Since Anarchy will never happen on a world level...it can never work. Hence, its not worth trying.

You don't know it will never happen on a global scale. The modern world has an unprecedented level of interaction between different parts of the global; it's not hard to imagine dramatic changes sweeping the whole globe. And besides, I already pointed out that an Anarchist society could survive, prosper, and defend itself even if the rest of the world wasn't Anarchist. There is no reason why an Anarchist society wouldn't work even on a non-global system. Indeed, there are anarchist societies around today.

The world is fine the way it is. Who would want to change it that dramatically

According to the UN world food program 24,000 people starve to death every day. This is a direct result of capitalism. I don't consider that fine. There are a gazillion wars all over the place, I don't consider that fine. Global inequality has reached horrific proportions. The world is currently run by a tiny group of people who run things mainly in their own interests and dictate to the rest of us. No minority has the right to dictate to the majority. People have a right to control our own lives, and to have an equal say in group decisions involving us.

[Joe R. Golowka]

Anarchy is Order, Government is Choas

Goingonit,

I've never read the story, but it sounds like a typical Hobbesian myth. Just 'cause some story says something will happen doesn't mean it will. People used to say the same thing would happen in a Democracy. Every time there's some new idea there's always naysayers who cry "it won't work" without even giving the idea a serious chance. They did it with democracy, they did it with the airplane, and many other things. Now we know they were wrong, but unfortunetly that hasn't taught the naysayers any lessons.

Anarchism (well, not my version of Anarchism) does not assume that "people will behave if there's no immediate reason to do so." Let us say that this claim is true, that people will not "behave." If so, then we can assume that rulers will also not behave (since they're human, too) and will abuse their power. Since they're rulers, they have a lot of power at their fingertips and will use that power to do lots of bad things (robbing people, rape, etc.) and the magnitude of those bad things will be worse because they're rulers with lots of power. Then we'd be worse of then with Anarchy. If people are too wicked to be free, then they're far too wicked to rule.

Also, one cannot impose Anarchy. It has to come from the bottom up. A group of gangs controlling the goings on is what a government is. The worst that would happen under Anarchy is that a government would emerge. The best that would happen under government is that we'd have Anarchy.

[Az]

Joe , one simple question: how would an anarchist society build a colony on a different planet ? launch a communication satellite ,etc. ?

[Joe R. Golowka]

Look Fading Glory,

Just because you think Anarchy won't work, is a matter of your biased and ignorant opinion, not facts. If you look at history Anarchy does work, there are ample examples. That's a fact. Whether it is better then the status quo is an opinion, just as the view that it wouldn't be better then the status quo is also an opinion. But it's a fact that it _does_ work.

I do not think Anarchy will solve all the world's problems, but it will be better then the system we have now. And some of those problems are systemic and can only be fixed by abolishing hierarchy.

This sentence:

if you didnt like your boss, you and a couple of co-workers can swing by his house and Lynch him?

Proves you are ignorant and don't know what your'e talking about. There wouldn't be any boses in Anarchy! The whole point of Anarchism is to abolish bosses! We seek the abolition of all hierarchical authority, including class society, the state, patriarchy and racism. That doesn't mean you do absolutely everything you feel like even if it hurts other people. It means everyone has control of their own lives and an equal say in decisions that involve them. Both Kabul and Somalia definately have hierarchies and thus are not an example of anarchy. Please go to http://www.anarchyfaq.org and send a few minutes learning what Anarchism is *really* about, not the strawman you apparently have in your head.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Joe R. Golowka
Anarchism (well, not my version of Anarchism) does not assume that "people will behave if there's no immediate reason to do so." Let us say that this claim is true, that people will not "behave." If so, then we can assume that rulers will also not behave (since they're human, too) and will abuse their power. Since they're rulers, they have a lot of power at their fingertips and will use that power to do lots of bad things (robbing people, rape, etc.) and the magnitude of those bad things will be worse because they're rulers with lots of power. Then we'd be worse of then with Anarchy. If people are too wicked to be free, then they're far too wicked to rule.

But it's far harder to impose moderating influences on society as a whole. A group of people can depose a leader, but they can't depose me, because I don't have anything to be deposed from. This is why, although leaders may be as wicked as the rest of us as individuals, things like democracy make sure that they can't blatantly screw their people over, whereas if I mugged someone, I couldn't be "voted off the island" or something.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
America is a republic.

On the surface, maybe it looks that way. But in America, there is far more emphasis on property rights than human rights. America has the largest poverty class population of all the industrialized countries, and three of the top five richest people in the world are Americans. It is easy for the rich to manipulate the government and use their position to maintain their status. Anyone can vote, campaign, and participate, sure, but what makes you effective? Money. Therefore, the people that have the most money have all the political power at their disposal.

America is indeed a plutocracy; it is ruled by the rich who are also the few.

[rev]

BTW, I am part Catalonian and part Castile-Leónian. So I would just shut your mouth when it comes talking about my country.

It seems your adversary is at least part Educated, so I think I'll trust him instead.

It's like how I've got a lot of Finnish blood in me, but I can't tell you the first thing about that nation.

Exactly what percentage, Giancarlo, of your life has been spent living in Spain?

[orange]

Joe, I'm not going to bother quoting you...and believe me it pains me to say this...

but Faded Glory is beyond correct on this one. Anarchy is not order, it is lack of order. Your UN stat about 24,000 starving people yada yada...oh boohoo a direct result of capitalism. Well there'd be 10X that many people dying from starvation and 50X as many people dying in general every day without the things capitalism has helped to bring about in society. A permanent anarchy is idiocy, it can't last because someone will achieve power in some way. Groups bond together and fight almost immediately after the breakdown of the system. There has to be direction, there has to be some form of control. Without it, everyone reverts to primal instincts, and those that don't are the first killed.

[faded glory]

wow Orange you aa...aaa......agree with me?

[Saint Marcus]

Giani is at it again!

And anarchy is as mis-understood as marxism. Everyone has an negative opinion about it without ever reading anything about it.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Joe R. Golowka
According to the UN world food program 24,000 people starve to death every day. This is a direct result of capitalism. I don't consider that fine. There are a gazillion wars all over the place, I don't consider that fine. Global inequality has reached horrific proportions. The world is currently run by a tiny group of people who run things mainly in their own interests and dictate to the rest of us. No minority has the right to dictate to the majority. People have a right to control our own lives, and to have an equal say in group decisions involving us.

More propaganda Joe...Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with people starving in Afghanistan or Iraq. In fact; I argue it is the lack of capitalism, which is the problem. If you want to blame Capitalism for 2/3 of the world being dirt poor...atleast mention that those 2/3 nations arent EVEN CAPITALIST! So already your arguement is discredited.

There wouldn't be any boses in Anarchy! The whole point of Anarchism is to abolish bosses! We seek the abolition of all hierarchical authority, including class society, the state, patriarchy and racism.

Exactly you'de kill off all the Bosses, and who would gaurd's the banks? who would enforce the law? Who would keep someone from Stealing your TV? Since anarcy wants to do away with Law Enforcement....Unless you are presuming there NOT BE ANY Crime/Greed under Anarcy!!! Of course then, you have Somalia or Kabul!

But in America, there is far more emphasis on property rights than human rights. America has the largest poverty class population of all the industrialized countries, and three of the top five richest people in the world are Americans

Wow thats ****in great!!! Like I care about Bill Gates! Have you heard of minding your own business? Or is it like just because somebody is rich that means HAD to of stole that money from some poverty stricken crackwhore!? This is completely false...and again, shows your uninformed bias.

Please go to http://www.anarchyfaq.org and send a few minutes learning what Anarchism is *really* about, not the strawman you apparently have in your head.

Read it! Same old rhetoric!

Next!

You don't know it will never happen on a global scale. The modern world has an unprecedented level of interaction between different parts of the global; it's not hard to imagine dramatic changes sweeping the whole globe.

Lets hope not!

[Cal]

Originally posted by faded glory
Wow thats ****in great!!! Like I care about Bill Gates! Have you heard of minding your own business? Or is it like just because somebody is rich that means HAD to of stole that money from some poverty stricken crackwhore!? This is completely false...and again, shows your uninformed bias.

The way you phrased it, maybe.

But you are deluded if you say rich people and businesses commit no crimes in the name of profit.
For example, there are more than 10 million children in america suffering from malnutrition, yet the milk industry pours out thousands of gallons of milk every year to artificially inflate the prices! Is this fair? Is this right? Of course it isn't.
America has the wealthiest wealthy class and the largest poverty class. Our system of unparalleled wealth maintains it through unparalleled human misery.