Why are muslims more prone to terrorism as a means to achieve their goals?

[Kropotkin]

Anyone wants numbers?

As a side not there's today 115000 christians (many of them very much so, including priests*) in Rwanda prisons awaiting punishments. All criminals from the slaugheters of almost one million people seven years ago. Don't know if you want to call them terrorists but there's a number for you...
----
*One of those priests is hiding out in the Vatican that protects him. Despite being wanted for mass murder and crimes against humanity.

[Rogan Josh]

Arab attacks on Jewish communities in 1921 and 1929 found the Haganah ill-equipped and ineffective: more than 100 Jews were killed in 1929
alone. When renewed Arab rioting broke out in Jaffa (Yafo) in 1936 and soon spread throughout Palestine, the Mandate authorities--realizing that
they could not defend every Jewish settlement--authorized the creation of the Jewish Settlement Police, also known as Notrim, who were trained,
armed, and paid by the British. In 1938 a British intelligence officer, Captain Orde Charles Wingate, organized three counterguerrilla units, called
special night squads, manned by British and Jewish personnel. As both of these organizations contained a large number of Haganah members, their
formation greatly increased the assets of the Haganah while providing a legal basis for much of their activities. Although these nearly continuous
disturbances from 1936 to 1939 cost the lives of nearly 600 Jews and more than 5,000 Arabs, Israeli observers have pointed out that Jewish
casualties would have been far greater were it not for the increasing effectiveness of these paramilitary units (see The Palestinian Revolt, 1936-39 ,
ch. 1).

During these disturbances, the Haganah's policy of havlaga, or self-restraint, under which retaliation against the Arab community at large was
strictly forbidden, was not aggressive enough for some. Under Vladimir (Zeev) Jabotinsky and later Menachem Begin, these dissidents in 1937
established the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi, known both as the Irgun and by the acronym Etzel). Initially the Irgun waged a
campaign of terror, sabotage, and reprisal against the Arabs. After the British government issued a white paper in May 1939 extending the Mandate
for ten years and placing limits on Jewish immigration, however, the Irgun turned its terrorist activities against the British troops in Palestine in an
all-out struggle against the Mandate authority.

This is from The US Library of Congress Study: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/iltoc.html

I have highlighted a few phrases that show:

a) The Jews in Palestine were not persecuted by the British, and that more Arabs were being killed by British trained forces than Jews.

b) The Library of the US Congress believes Irgun to be a terrorist organisation, and Begin to have been a terrorist.

[orange]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Now I know you're full of it. I guess that "everyone else" doesn't include Roland!

I'll be back when you actually have something to say.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sikander
Secondly it is one of the big two religions who spread primarily by the sword (the other being christianity).

I don't think that's quite fair to either religion. The principle method by which Chritianity spread was by converting the rulers of countries, at which point the whole country was converted. Islam spread into Central Asia by this method, also, when the Timurid Empire converted. Also, Islam spread in Sub Saharan Africa and the East Indies by through trade ruotes. I would say that a significant mehtod by which both religions spread was by the sword, but not principly.

Finally, it's adherants are probably the poorest and most ignorant adherants to any major religion, and suffer under the most repressive governments as well.

I would really say it's a toss up. There are hundreds of millions of Christians who are in just as desperate poverty and suffer under just as despicable governments. Africa and Latin America are both full of of such people.

Thus you have a fine mix of the hubris . . . inflamed with a historical tendency to holy warfare, added to a strong resentment of poor living conditions, racism, and the fine example of the local corrupt government to teach that human life is worthless.

Muslim mothers don't cry when their children are butchered and their husbands and brothers are killed? No, it isn't that they see life is worthless. Anyway, that's a claim that's made of every enemy of the United States, every, that they don't value human life as much as we do. It's always false.

The Muslim world, and in particular the Arab world has to be a concern for every citizen of the planet. It is the only part of the world which is more repressive than it was 30 years ago.

That's hardly true. Thirty years ago most of those regimes were as vicious as they are today. Some are slightly less so. Today's Iran is less vicious towards its people than the Shah's regime. Bangledesh no longer has a dictatorship. Indonesia from from the US backed Suharto dictatorship. Qatar is somewhat liberal, for being a monarchy. Egypt is much better than it was under Nassar (which isn't saying much).

Meanwhile, I'd say the US is more repressive today than it was thirty years ago (though not significantly so).

Ted, did it ever occur to you that the State Department and the FBI might have an agenda! The Contras and UNITA and RENAMO were never on those lists. Why, because they were sponsored by the US government. Were the Mujahedeen on those lists, even though they waged terrorism against the USSR?

You asked for currently sponsored death sqauds, okay, the AUC, the right-wing paramilitary groups in Columbia. They work first in glove with the Columbian military, massacring peasants, assassinating liberal and leftists politicians, and the US is giving them arms, training, and money. Not directly, but they are giving it to the Columbian military, which doesn't just have links to the AUC, but in many cases are the AUC and perform joint operations, never against armed FARC bands, but only against peasants.

How about the Peruvian, Honduran, Guatamalan, El Salvadoran, and Brazilian death sqauds? How about the Indonesian death sqauds (which are still operating and still being trained in the United States, despite a ban on such training)? Our government sponsors repressive regimes around the world, and many of them have death squads, often trained by us at the School of the Americas (which recently underwent a name change).

Also, the Palestinians got nothing on the Columbians. Half of all the world's kidnappings occur in Columbia. Half of all the unionists in the world who are murdered are murdered in Columbia. Seventy five percent of the killings are carried out by the military or the paras. Most of the kidnappings are carried out by the FARC.

[Ted Striker]

AUC is on the list along with FARC and Shining Path. So is Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA), based in Peru. Also mentioned is National Liberation Army (ELN) based in Colombia.

I agree that the Colombian terrorists are the worst, I couldn't imagine living there must be a complete nightmare. Though I would still say Muslim terrorist activity overall is more.

Also mentioned on the list are groups based in Rwanda, Sierra Leone, and Northern Ireland.

But our government loves those South American death squads so much, we gave them all nice spots on our official State Department website.

[chequita guevara]

The Tupac Amarus and the Shining Path aren't death squads (well, maybe the Shining Path--they've threatened American leftists in addition to the people they've murderd in Peru). I'm talking about Peruvian government death squads.

Know why the AUC is on the list? Because they are the armed forces of the Colombian drug lords to protect themselves from taxation by the FARC. Pablo Escobar (you remember him?) was one of the leaders of the AUC.

[Ted Striker]

Somebody say numbers?

Abu Nidal organization (ANO)

A few hundred plus limited overseas support structure.

Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)

Believed to have about 200 core fighters, but more than 2,000 individuals motivated by the prospect of receiving ransom payments for foreign hostages allegedly joined the group in August.

Armed Islamic Group (GIA)

Unkown; probably several hundred to several thousand.

Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya

Unknown. At its peak the IG probably commanded several thousand hard-core members and a like number of sympathizers. The 1998 cease-fire and security crackdowns following the attack in Luxor in 1997 probably have resulted in a substantial decrease in the group's numbers.

HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)

Unknown number of hard-core members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)

Has several thousand armed supporters located in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan, and India's southern Kashmir and Doda regions. Supporters are mostly Pakistanis and Kashmiris and also include Afghans and Arab veterans of the Afghan war. Uses light and heavy machineguns, assault rifles, mortars, explosives, and rockets. HUM lost some of its membership in defections to the JEM.

Hizballah (Party of God)

Several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrrorist operatives.

Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)

Militants probably number in the thousands.

Al-Jihad

Not known but probably has several hundred hard-core members.

[As we have seen, this is a partner to Al-Queda, most likely the two have merged, and it has its own group of several hundred to several thousand members.]

Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO)

Several thousand fighters based in Iraq with an extensive overseas support structure. Most of the fighters are organized in the MEK's National Liberation Army (NLA).

The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

Unknown.

Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)

Unknown.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)

Some 800.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)

Several hundred.

al-Qaida

May have several hundred to several thousand members. Also serves as a focal point or umbrella organization for a worldwide network that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups such as Egyptian Islamic Jihad, some members of al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin.

[Note: We have already seen that they have several thousand members.]

Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Army of Mohammed)

Has several hundred armed supporters located in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan, and in India's southern Kashmir and Doda regions. Following Maulana Masood Azhar's release from detention in India, a reported three quarters of Harakat ul-Mujahedin (HUM) members defected to the new organization, which has managed to attract a large number of urban Kashmiri youth. Supporters are mostly Pakistanis and Kashmiris and also include Afghans and Arab veterans of the Afghan war. Uses light and heavy machineguns, assault rifles, mortars, improvised explosive devices, and rocket grenades.

Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous)

Has several hundred members in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan, and in India's southern Kashmir and Doda regions. Almost all LT cadres are foreigners--mostly Pakistanis from seminaries across the country and Afghan veterans of the Afghan wars. Uses assault rifles, light and heavy machineguns, mortars, explosives, and rocket propelled grenades.

--------------

These all come from previously provided lists. Until those who are demanding exact figures can provide their own source of data, I challenge them to dispute this.

If you search the counterterrorism sites out there, whether they be governement, private parties, or non US sites, they will usually refer to this document as a primary source of information on terrorist groups.

[Gibsie]

Hope I don't double post, so I'll make a shorter version of what just got deleted

Ted, until you can compare the figures for Muslim-terrorists VS non-Muslim terrorists, how can you make any concrete statements with regard to whether or not Muslims are more likely to become terrorists? It seems like you're jumping to conclusions, then hoping you can get facts to fit around your ill-thought out statements.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Gibsie
how can you make any concrete statements with regard to whether or not Muslims are more likely to become terrorists?

Again, that's NOT what I am saying.

I am saying, if you look at the terrorist groups around the world, the majority of them are Muslim. The group that comes next is Marxists and Communists.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

That's an interesting set of lists, Ted. I was intrigued to note that, if your lists are a definitive list of all terrorist organisations in the world, then ETA can only be assumed to be just a bunch of rowdy scamps.

What's more, the Red Hand Commando and the other Ulster loyalist factions still killing people aren't terrorists. They're just misunderstood, aren't they?

What else? Now Sendero Luminosa isn't very trendy these days (para-military Marxism is soooooo 1982) but they're still around and being nasty to people. Shall we classify them as "a nasty bunch of rotters"? Good. Not terrorists at all. Nor are the remaining Red Brigade cell factions either, in that case.

A quick change of focus.....the para-military militant wing of the ALF? Tree-huggers with car bombs aren't terrorists? Right, I get you.

Abortion clinic bomber cells? US militia activists? Nope, they must be a bit too borderline, mustn't they?

The Chop Hand Commando, or any of the hordes of nutter factions in Sierra Leone and Liberia? Not terrorists? OK then.

The Khmer Rouge? True, Cambodia is a bit Islamic in places, but the jolly old remnants of the KR aren't noted for their religious nature, are they? Just a mild-mannered bunch of hooligans? OK.


I think I'm starting to understand.

[Ted Striker]

For those wanting the rest of the list

Now Bugs, thanks for supporting my comment that people are putting words in my mouth!

That was another blatant example. Since when did I ever exclude all those groups and call them all nice guys? I didn't.

If any of you bothered to actually look at the list that was provided (you all are allowed to look at other sites besides Apolyton) you would see exactly what is on it.

==============================

Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) religious cult in Japan, Russia
Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) Marxists in Spain
Japanese Red Army (JRA) Japan
Kach Chai Israeli Jews
Kahane Chai Israeli Jews
Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) Iraq, Turkey
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) Sri Lanka
National Liberation Army (ELN) Marxists in Colombia
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) Communists in Colombia
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17 November) radicals in Greece
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) Marxists in Turkey
Revolutionary People's Struggle (ELA) anti-capitalists in Greece
Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path, or SL) Maoists in Peru
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) Marxists in Peru
Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB) Communists in Phillipines
Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR) Genociders in Rwanda
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) Armed wing of Republican Sinn Fein in Ireland
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO) Communists in Spain
Irish Republican Army (IRA) Armed wing of Sinn Fein in Ireland
Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) anti-Catholics in Ireland
New People's Army (NPA) Communists in Phillipines
Orange Volunteers (OV) anti-Catholics in Ireland
Real IRA (RIRA) anti-British in Ireland
Red Hand Defenders (RHD) anti-Catholics in Ireland
Revolutionary United Front (RUF) Sierra Leone
United Self-Defense Forces/Group of Colombia (AUC-Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia) drug lords in Columbia


There is also a Muslim organization in South Africa called PAGAD that I forgot to include in the first list.

[Gibsie]

Here are some words that you've put out of your mouth (well, fingers), Ted.

"But a large percentage of terrorists ARE Muslim. Therefore they are statistically more prone to terrorism.

THAT is the point."

"Again, that's [concrete statements with regard to whether or not Muslims are more likely to become terrorists] NOT what I am saying."

So, you're saying that Muslims are statistically more prone to terrorism, yet you are also making no concrete statements about whether or not Muslims are more likely to become terrorists.

...

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


So that's 4 out of 28 groups that WERE NOT MUSLIM.

http://www.news4jax.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-100531820011005-121013.html

You can also take a look at the Department of State's list from 2000. Tell me what any other of those groups have in common! Yet there is an overwhelming similiarity in a majority of the groups and that is that THEY ARE MUSLIM. The only group that comes close is Communists or Marxists, Leninists. Here's a list of the Islamic organizations mentioned:

Abu Nidal organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Armed Islamic Group (GIA)
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah (Party of God)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Al-Jihad
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK or MKO)
The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)
al-Qaida
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) (Army of Mohammed)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) (Army of the Righteous)

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/index.cfm?docid=2450

Any questions?

So your above post, which I have quoted, was actually a load of old cobblers?

[Ted Striker]

Bugs, those are two different lists you are looking at.

The main one I've been quoting was the 2000 report from the State Department. That one where I listed the Islamic groups was an excerpt, and, AGAIN, I put a link there for anyone who wanted to read it, would see ALL of the groups mentioned. I pulled out the Islamic groups.

HOWEVER, look at either list, and look at what is the seen as the most common denominator among the largest of the groups? It is that they are Muslim, followed by Communists/Marxists/Maoists/etc.

On the other hand, I STILL have yet to see ANY evidence to refute what I am saying. Not one. All I see is a couple of names tossed out there, and that's about it.

Gibsie,

What I am referring to is people saying I am just outright dismissing all of the non Muslim terrorist groups. That I am not doing.

[Natan]

Dino: Kach and Kahane Chai are the same grop (Kahane Chai was started by the son of the assassinated Kach leader when Kach was banned, and is now banned itself, and the state department list treats them as one group) I don't know where you get the idea of Gush Emunim as a terrorist organization. Maybe you're thinking of the now-defunct "Jewish Undergound" of the 1980s?

As for the original topic, I think it's a complicated subject. However, I think it is useful to consider Islamist terrorism as the successor to the Marxist/Communist terrorist groups of the 70s and 80s. It's a fad, and it just so happens that the belt of Islamic nations corresponds to an area prone to terrorism and violence.. Groups which used to call themselves Marxist, socialist, or Arab-nationalist now call themselves Islamic, partly because it sounds cool and makes people take them seriously, and also because it gets them some aid from other Islamic groups in different countries. The Islamic tradition of religious government makes it harder to fight this terrorist fad, since the Islamists will always be able to attack the government from the right as "un-Islamic," while the government is bound by tradition to avoid open opposition to Islamic government Then of course, there's also the issue of Islamic nationalism and of Arab nationalism as Islamic fundamentalism, etc.