Draft Dodgers: Traitors?

[David Floyd]

Chris, I totally disagree with you here.

It would have been possible in mid 1942, not 1943.

The invasion of Hawaii would BARELY have been possible in mid 1942 - figure several months to clear up resistance in Hawaii, ASSUMING that Japan can even win, which I dispute. After that, Japanese naval aviation has to be replenished, pilots have to be brought in, naval warships have to be rotated and replenished, fresh troops have to be brought in, Hawaiian bases have to be rebuilt for Japanese use, etc., before an invasion of the US is even CONTEMPLATIBLE. And don't think for a second Japan could bypass Hawaii and go for the US - Hawaii was too big of a base, and would have been able to continually strike at Japanese warships and transports as they passed within range, as well as serving as a submarine base for Allied submarines.

Oh, and I agree that a trip around South America would have been very tough, but the US was the first to develop tactics for keeping ships at sea indefinitely...and besides, once the carriers eventually DID come into the PTO, they would still have overwhelmed the IJN, just like in real life.

[SlowwHand]

Had Japan come on, we were on the ropes. Just fact.
Was their downfall, just as Germany's with Hitler's fear of water.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think the Japanese made a big mistake in not invading Hawaii. That was feasible. But they could not know beforehand how spectacularly successful the attack would be in destroying the battle wagons.

[SlowwHand]

The U.S. essentially had no Navy left.
Japan had us bent over and didn't know they could ram it to us.
Bluntly speaking.

[SlowwHand]

Shouldn't have put it that way.
Asher and Red Jon will be all beside themselves.

[devilmunchkin]

just an opinion

i seriously don't want to come under some of the nasty fire i've seen in this thread, but this is what i think:
as a woman, if i were to be drafted (i guess in some parallel universe) i'd willingly go.
but to those who dodge, males atthe moment, i think if that's what they want to do and think their efforts are needed elsewhere, more power to them. But at the same time, they seriously need to respect those who are willingly going into war and being drafted.

[David Floyd]

Well, Slowwhand, in my opinion destroying our battleships was almost a favor, in that it made us concentrate on carrier tactics, which ultimately proved superior - there was only, I believe, two battleship engagements in WW2, although there might have been a couple of more.

Our carriers were worth far more than all 8 battleships at Pearl Harbor - more than all the BBs in the US Navy, IMO.

[David Floyd]

dm, that's sorta my viewpoint. If one wants to volunteer or allow themselves to be drafted, I can respect that, but that person isn't me.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Well, Slowwhand, in my opinion destroying our battleships was almost a favor, in that it made us concentrate on carrier tactics, which ultimately proved superior - there was only, I believe, two battleship engagements in WW2, although there might have been a couple of more.

Our carriers were worth far more than all 8 battleships at Pearl Harbor - more than all the BBs in the US Navy, IMO.

Tell me, Mr. Not Me. How many carriers sail unescorted?
You're in way over your head.

[David Floyd]

SH....I'm not in way over my head as I'm discussing WW2 history with someone who has a Masters in history from that time period...battleships are NOT escorts for carriers, as they are far too slow. Just because the Japanese did it, on a few occasions - although not with their main carrier striking forces - doesn't make it correct doctrine. Carriers were always escorted by cruisers and destroyers, but not battleships, and the destruction of the BBs of PacFlt forced the US to concentrate on carrier tactics instead of Jutland-style fights.

[Sikander]

David,

You are wrong regarding the utility of Battleships. Battleships were used as escorts for carriers throughout the war because they could put up massive amounts of anti-aircraft fire. While the old battleships like those damaged and destroyed at Pearl Harbor were indeed too slow to escort carriers, the (IIRC) 8 battleships of the newest classes (Iowa class and the class which included the Washington and South Dakota) could make 28 knots, and often served as escorts for carrier groups despite the fact that they slowed these task forces by a few knots.

Early on in the war Battleships would have been quite useful for the allies in keeping Japanese non carrier task forces from dominating the seas in a number of areas where the Japanese did not have carriers deployed and where land based aircraft were either not able to operate effectively due to range or due to lack of sufficient numbers. The fact that the Japanese were very effective in eliminating this potential threat to their very large number of seperate and lightly escorted task groups by destroying both U.S. and British surface fleets in the first month obscures the potential that these forces had to throw a wrench in the Japanese timetable.

Finally, even the slow old battlewagons were very useful in providing fire support for land forces on both offense and defense. Additionally they were very effective as flak wagons for defending troop and supply transports which had to travel within range of Japanese land based air assets. Battleships often served as flagships because of their size and ability to take a pounding without being sunk. If they were ineffective they would have been scrapped and the crews turned to more useful purposes. The reason that more were not built is that we already had a lot of them, their combat utility had been reduced by carrier and land-based air, and they took a very long time to build from the keel up in comparison to even carriers.

[chequita guevara]

Re: just an opinion

Originally posted by devilmunchkin
But at the same time, they seriously need to respect those who are willingly going into war and being drafted.

Who's disrespecting them?

[chequita guevara]

Dave, I think you're wrong in overestimating Japan's ability to conquer the Hawaiian Islands. Japan ran right through the West's troops for six months, and put up a ferocious defense all the way to the end. They would have conquered Hawaii as easily as they did the Philippines.

Sikander, the Washington and South Dakota were members of the South Dakota class battleship. In the first engagements in the slot, as well as various fights in Indonesia, etc. the Japanese outfought the US. It's reasonable to believe that had the battleships survived Pearl Harbor, the Japanese would still have clobbered them elsewhere.

[Rogan Josh]

A question to those who regard draft dodgers as traitors:

If you had been a German living in Nazi Germany during WWII, would you regard people who wouldn't fight for Germany as traitors? If so, in what sense, and what would have been the 'right' thing to do?

[Chris 62]

To bad Horsey isn't around...

Originally posted by David Floyd
Chris, I totally disagree with you here.

Yes, so I have noticed, but short of actually listing ships and availibility (which I could do, if you really like) I'll make yet another stab at showing you how really possible all this was,
If Coral sea and Midway are a sucess (say Japan losses Shoho at coral sea, and Hiryu and Soryu at Midway), Japan would have been able to recover downed aviators from the battles (historically they couldn't because they retired both times) so, in July Japan has avalible the following forces for Sho-1 (Victory)
6 CV (Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Junyo, Hiyo)
3 CVL (Ryujo, Hosho, Zuiho
Approx 460 Aircraft with fully trained aircrews
2 Yamato class BBs
2 Mutsu class BBs
4 Fuso class BBs
4 Haruna class BBs
18 CAs various classes
20+ CLs various clsses
100+ DDs Various classes
40+ Subs Various classes
100+ transports
150,000 Imperial army troops

Possible USN Forces
2 CV (Hornet, Wasp) Both untrained and inexperinced
6 BBs (Pennsylvannia, New Mexico, Idaho, Mississippi, Colorado, North Carolina)
12 CA
10 CL
40+ DDs
30+ Subs
West coast defense, 2 army division equivelent, approx 30,000 men
Land based air, Non existant, maybe 50+ combat AC of various types
Possibly reinforced by first marine Division, currently at sea, 15,000 effectives added.

This is based on complete victory at both battles.

The invasion of Hawaii would BARELY have been possible in mid 1942 - figure several months to clear up resistance in Hawaii, ASSUMING that Japan can even win, which I dispute.

This isn't needed if the Canal locks are broken, Hawaii dies from starvation. Troops need to eat, weapons need ammo and veheciles need fuel.

After that, Japanese naval aviation has to be replenished, pilots have to be brought in, naval warships have to be rotated and replenished, fresh troops have to be brought in, Hawaiian bases have to be rebuilt for Japanese use, etc., before an invasion of the US is even CONTEMPLATIBLE.

You keep insisting Hawaii is needed, I'm telling you, IT ISN'T. With Midway, Japan has it's advanced base to strike at US West Coast, Hawaii can be bypassed. Even if not, and Japan uses forces listed above to take Hawaii, propects for USA victory are almost nil, Japan can augment it strike force with Land based airpower flying from Midway.

And don't think for a second Japan could bypass Hawaii and go for the US - Hawaii was too big of a base, and would have been able to continually strike at Japanese warships and transports as they passed within range, as well as serving as a submarine base for Allied submarines.

A Falicy on your part, you simply don't understand logistics, if west coast is struck and Panama Canal destroyed, every drop of fuel, every bomb, every plane, every ship, every sub, must come half way around the world.
And ask yourself this:
Would the USA send assests to Hawaii if San Francisco was in Japanese hands?
I don't think so. Your thinking in a very illogical fashion, mainly "I wouldn't try it, so neither would they", and I'm telling you, your dead wrong.

Oh, and I agree that a trip around South America would have been very tough, but the US was the first to develop tactics for keeping ships at sea indefinitely...and besides, once the carriers eventually DID come into the PTO, they would still have overwhelmed the IJN, just like in real life.

Said tatics were develpoed in 42-43, and US Ships would have had to sail the long way to get at Japan, and their numbers would be less, as all west coast port facilities would be unavailible, so such a overwhelming battle is more difficult.

Also, understand, Japan's navy was whittled down in the Guadalcanal campaign. If US WC is siezed, Japan's ships are safe from attacks at sea, untill USN forces make the long trip, which could be detected by Japan with long range recon AC flying out of San Diego. Instead of a worn out IJN that USN faced in Marianas in 1944, the USN would be faced with a powerful IJN still basically intact. with it's aircrews still availible.

And your also not seeing the full implications of this. If the US mainland is attacked and occupied, you can forget "Europe first", there will be no Torch landings, and no "Huskey", and no Italian campaign. Britain would have to carry the load alone in this area, and events showed, Britain may not have won in North Africa without "Torch" (The Germans sent 200,000+ men to Tunisia, such a force could certainly give the British 8th army pause). Also, the Strategic bombing campagin in Europe would have been delayed by years, so that means the German Luftwaffe is not eaten away (as it was historically), which means it could have been deployed to Russia, affecting that campaign...See?
The possibilties are endless, and the USA far from invinceable in 1942. Eventually the USA would expell Japan, but the war would have been VERY different.

You consider 7 divisions adequate to invade California?

Oregon and Washington state also.
USA had only 9 divisions trained and combat ready in whole USA at this time. USA would be forced to send untrained draftees into battle against experinced Imperial Japanese troops to retake west coast, and enormous losses would surely follow.

All of this DIDN'T happen because the USN won at Corral sea and Midway, but it sure could have, make no mistake about it.