Draft Dodgers: Traitors?

[David Floyd]

Dr, I think that while each Founder was different, what they said in the Constitution was pretty much consistent with each of their thoughts, thus, from an original intent viewpoint, there really is only one "correct" interpretation.

[SlowwHand]

The bottom line is, if you don't want to give something back, don't.
Veterans paid for that right for you.
If you choose to be an unthankful s.o.b., that's your choice.
It's given to you, so choose to whine around.

[David Floyd]

Sure Sloww, vets of the American Revolution did - vets of the other wars paid for the freedom of those living in OTHER nations, not myself. I don't owe them, or this country, a goddamn thing in terms of military service, or really anything else.

[SlowwHand]

You're a classic example David.

[David Floyd]

A classic example of WHAT exactly? You, my friend, are a classic example of "My country, right or wrong", and a classic example of someone who, due to his age, decides he can act condescending towards those younger to himself without addressing their points. Or so the trend is, anyway.

[SlowwHand]

A classic example of what?
Where the hell you been during this dialogue?
A classic example of a taker. An Infatuation wannabe. What else?
Condescending? Uh, yeah right. That makes a ****load of sense.

[David Floyd]

I'm certainly not trolling, if that's what you mean. And most people would actually consider me a very giving person, those who know me well personally anyway

I'm just not inclined to give my life for a cause that I don't believe in, that's all.

[SlowwHand]

The point is, you don't believe in adamned thing, but what's good for David.
So screw you, I have nothing more to say to a little tiit sucking, protected, baby with no respect for what gives them the right to be a tiit sucking protected baby.

[David Floyd]

Slow, I don't believe that you are acting appropriately for an intelligent discussion. I have not flamed you once - certainly not to the degree you just flamed me, or have been flaming me for this whole thread. I could stoop to your level and be justified in throwing out some nasty flames, but I'm not going to. I think I'll just rest securely on the moral high ground you've so graciously given me by virtue of most of your posts in this entire thread.

So if you don't want to talk to me anymore, don't. I'll just remember that you didn't - couldn't? - answer a single one of my points without throwing out an ad hominem. No skin off my back, I don't really care. I'm sure I can find plenty of other intelligent debators out there.

But if you think I don't believe in anything except what is good for myself, you are SORELY mistaken. If you knew me on a personal level, you would probably find that I care more about the other person than myself. I go to great lengths not to hurt the feelings of others, and to make others feel good. In fact, I would rather have something bad happen to myself, than it happen to someone I care about. This means I would die for someone I cared for. Unfortunately, I don't give two ****s about some poor bastard some dictator is killing over in Ablonatistan - sure, I feel sorry for him, but I'm damn sure not gonna die for him. End of discussion.

[Hoek]

Draft Dodging certainly is treason no matter what the reason. Draft dodging means avoiding mandatory military service, regardless of the cause. And treason is betraying your country. If you avoid military service, you are betraying your country. The real question should be, when is treason justifiable. Regardless of what you think, your country is asking you to put your life on the line for what the leaders consider the benefit of the country. If you refuse, you are ensuring that some other guy is going to have to fill your shoes, and you are putting personal reasons ahead of the nation.

I would consider treason justified if: a) you are morally opposed to any sort of killing--but even here there is some grey area...a draftee could serve as a medic or some logistical function that would not involve killing
b) your family members will die without your direct support
c) you are truly medically unable to serve
d) your government has betrayed you...this would have to be something big...Japense internists would be an example, American Indians would be another

[David Floyd]

Hmmm. d) is kinda circular, because I could say the government has betrayed me by drafting me, and thus violating my civil liberties. d) could apply to anything - the government has betrayed me by regulating guns, for example.

And treason, by the way, is not, Constitutionally, betraying your country, it is aiding and abetting the enemies of your country. Draft dodging doesn't materially aid or abet any enemy I can see, especially in that me not serving wouldn't allow any enemy to invade the US - even using the aggregation argument, no one can invade the US because of nuclear weapons.

[The Mad Monk]

I believe the main reason Germany declared war on us was that we declared war on Japan.

While I don't believe that there is only one 'true' interpretation of the constitution, I think there are far fewer than many academicians, activists and lawyers would have us believe.

I wonder what Socrates would say about draft dodging?

[Dr Spin]

Dr, I think that while each Founder was different, what they said in the Constitution was pretty much consistent with each of their thoughts, thus, from an original intent viewpoint, there really is only one "correct" interpretation.

But how to reconcile that with the vauge wording? Example would be the 'free speech' mentioned before. How do you define 'speech'? How do you define 'freedom', or even 'right' for that matter? Definitions are necessarily fluid as things change, also.

Without nailing down every definition precisely, I don't see how you can claim to have a 'correct' interpretation.

If you want to talk about 'intent', well I don't even like the government in Washington (over the local) telling me what to do. I'm far less excited about the government from 200yrs ago telling me what to do.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by GP
Rogan,.... If you just think your skin is worth more than the average Joe because of your double-dome IQ...

I was saying no such thing - I was meaning that if someone, for example, is trained in building warplanes, then you should use them for building warplanes - if you want to make the most of your war effort you should use the training that your people already have.

You won't (and we don't) recruit young men with the message of a mercenary trade-off (chance death for money). If you have to write a letter home to one of your troops parents after they died (I never have...but my close friend did after a shipboard fire), you aren't going to mention the E-4 salary the young man earned! You will mention how they acted bravely to save their shipmates and the ship. I would say the same is true by extension for police officers and firefighters.

So if someone dies in the bombing of a munitions factory (while doing their bit for the war), you would think that their life was worth less because they weren't a soldier, policeman or firefighter?

[PatRussell]

Criminal - yes
Traitor - no

I do believe that every adult male should serve in some way, but I'm not sure I would want an army of people forced into serving.