Draft Dodgers: Traitors?

[drake]

You think these few macho guys you knew represented the entire armed forces che?

I thought you didn't like people who make sweeping generalizations

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
GP, thought 2nd Lt. was the most common casualty per cap in Vietnam, due to the frequency of fragging.

You thought wrong....

[TCO]

Che, guess how many 18 year old draftees died in Viet Nam?

[chequita guevara]

I knew a bunch of guys, and they all had the same personality after serving, though they had varying personalities before joining. I also knew myself well enough to know that I was extremely vulnerable to having my personality molded (any wonder I joined a cult a little more than two years later).

Anyways, I was a 20 year old kid, I've matured a lot since then. I have since met people who did not match the stereotype I formed then.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GP
Che, guess how many 18 year old draftees died in Viet Nam?

Dunno, but my understanding is the average age of death for a US soldier serving in Vietnam was 19.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


This is nonsense.

I think taking someone else's life can sometimes be justified, so a) is out. But I still would oppose being drafted, for a number of reasons, and anyone who knew me would tell you that I am no coward and I am certainly no selfish brat.

Firstly, they wouldn't have me - I am not fit (medically) for military service.

Secondly, I would be completely wasted on the front line. It has been discussed in another thread recently that there are a lot of people needed in the background, away from the fighting, in order to win a war. Any side stupid enough to send me to the front deserves to lose. In a serious war where the draft was used I would probably be put to work on weapons research.

Thirdly, I do believe that a free society should protect me and gaurantee my rights. I don't see soldiers as being any different from bakers or lawyers or garbage collectors. Each has a function in society, the specialization of which allows greater efficiency and an improvement of our standard of living. Soldiers get paid for what they do, and part of their responsibility is to fight and possibly die. They choose to take that risk, and they are compensated for that risk.

Only in extreme cases where my society could only survive by drafting all men to fight would I consider it - and then I would make the decision on my own, not by some idiot's command. This certainly hasn't happened since WWII and frankly, if it does happen, someone isn't doing their job properly.

Rogan,

If you are medically unfit for front-line duty, than you would not be put there. If you had vital skills, you might be used elsewhere. If you just think your skin is worth more than the average Joe because of your double-dome IQ...that doesn't hold any water with me. See...I think my skin is worth more than yours because of my charming manner and dashing good looks (and backwards worn turban ).

You won't (and we don't) recruit young men with the message of a mercenary trade-off (chance death for money). If you have to write a letter home to one of your troops parents after they died (I never have...but my close friend did after a shipboard fire), you aren't going to mention the E-4 salary the young man earned! You will mention how they acted bravely to save their shipmates and the ship. I would say the same is true by extension for police officers and firefighters.

A mercenary army* is a danger to the republic and probably would not fight very well. I'll take a squad of Marines over a company of Mafiosos any day. It's not just training...it's heart. Read the story of Cincinattus.

*For the subtlety challenged: this is not an argument for the draft...this is an arguement against Rogan Josh's view of soldiers/sailors as hired help.

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Dunno, but my understanding is the average age of death for a US soldier serving in Vietnam was 19.

Nu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nu-nineteen!! (From the pop tune of the 80's).

Naw. You're off, add 4 years and you're right.

Care to take a guess on my question? Come on, take a swing? ?You must know the overall number of casaulties for Viet Nam. How many were 18 year old draftees?

[chequita guevara]

I haven't a clue, GP. 59,000+ total US casualties in combat (with apparently 1/4--or 1/4 more--being victims of friendly fire). Total Vietnamese casualties were 2+ million. Theben has my Vietnam book, so I can't pull up any more relevent info.

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
GP, thought 2nd Lt. was the most common casualty per cap in Vietnam, due to the frequency of fragging.

Che, U.S. Army officer casualties in Viet Nam* were:

2LT: 496
CPT: 1,018
MAJ: 254
LCOL: 117


You can see that not just on a per capita basis, but on an ABSOLUTE basis more O-3's died than O-1's. Also, it should be pretty obvious that O-4's and O-5's were more at danger per capita (on an individual basis.)

*13.5% of all casualties were officers and they made up 12.5% of the troops. So a reasonably equitable risk profile. Although the rate of officer deaths was higher than in WWII.

[faded glory]

The other 1/4 of US troops were killed/injured by mines. The country was laced with AP mines. Mines had a huge physcoligical effect on the troops.

Alot of reason why the casaulty rate was so high among the new guys was simple. They didnt teach them anything..... The veterans sort of looked down at them and didnt even bother talking to them (knowing they would probably be dead in a few weeks)

[TCO]

It's cool dude...

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I haven't a clue, GP. 59,000+ total US casualties in combat (with apparently 1/4--or 1/4 more--being victims of friendly fire). Total Vietnamese casualties were 2+ million. Theben has my Vietnam book, so I can't pull up any more relevent info.

I don't expect you to memorize these kinds of stats. Just want to see what number you guess. There were 101 18-year old draftee casualties. 7 of these were black.

Another interesting note: There were approx. TWICE as many 52-year old casualties as 17-year olds (22 vs. 12).

[chequita guevara]

For the whole war?!? That's really low.

How many draftees total died in the war?

[TCO]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
For the whole war?!? That's really low.

How many draftees total died in the war?

Why was the number of 18 year old draftees casualties so low?

1. Most of the soldiers IN Viet Nam were not draftees.
2. Draft boards had a tendency to pick people a little older (before they left the age window of eligibility for instance.)
3. Draft boards couldn't draft 17-year olds. But 17 year olds could volunteer. So with age drift, you'd expect a lot of 18 year old volunteers.
4. Average casualty age was 22.8


What percent of casualties were draftees and how did it vary by age?

1. 3% of 18 year old casualties were draftees.
2. 14% of 19 year old casualties were draftees
3. 23% of all casualties were draftees

[Dr Spin]

Geeps,

You can see that not just on a per capita basis, but on an ABSOLUTE basis more O-3's died than O-1's. Also, it should be pretty obvious that O-4's and O-5's were more at danger per capita (on an individual basis.)

Why was this? And what was the casualty rate of NCO's? I'm interested because they were the 'copter crews.

BTW, I was rejected for nuke EDO. They want folks comming in with M.S.'s in NucE. My degree put me in intelligence. Go figure.


Thoughts on draft:

I'm for a peacetime draft.

If you don't want to be drafted, that's fine. I would probably advocate the stripping of citizenship of anyone who avoids such a draft, rather than jail.

As for the old "It takes more guts to go to jail for what you believe in" line... no, I don't buy it. If you disagree with the gov't, that's OK... vote, lobby government, organize a rally. Noone has the right to break the law.

[chequita guevara]

If the law is wrong, you not only have a right to break it, you have an obligation to break it.