Infatuation Considers Christianity

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Just exactly WHICH Christians would those be?

Biblical ones.

Are those the ones who say we can only be saved through faith (as the Bible clearly states), or only through works (as the Bible clearly states), or only by predestination (as the Bible clearly states)?

[DinoDoc]

Oh you mean the ones that wrote about their personal relationship with Christ?

Yes, I refer specifically to the Gospel of John.

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Are those the ones who say we can only be saved through faith (as the Bible clearly states), or only through works (as the Bible clearly states), or only by predestination (as the Bible clearly states)?

I've yet to see any form of Christianity that has said that you don't have to accept Jesus as your savior. Perhaps you could point one out to me because, to the best of my knowlege, the three forms you pointed out all accept that premise in one form or another.

[Robert]

geez Ted,
your opinion hasn't been build on any solid ground, is it ?

You didn't come with any arguments but just call us bigots.

I'll post my questions again:
1. How do you give sence to your life.
2. what is the sence of life.

We all have an opinion.
- Atheists say christians won't go to heaven (there is no heaven)
- Liberals say everyone will go to that kind of heaven they want to go to
- Muslims say everyone that follows these and these rules might go to heaven
- Christians say everyone that believes in Jesus Christ will go to heaven
- Agnosts say we all might go to heaven but pherhaps we won't

Why do the atheists / liberals / agnosts have a valid opinion and are the rest bigots ? Why can an atheist say that a muslim won't go to heaven and can a christian not ?

Did you read my line "I hope all muslims will go to heaven"
I add: "I hope everyone will go to heaven ! I really hope so !"

It's typicall that people like you start to yell about 'I don't waste my time with......'
You're wasting your own time ! you start to call names without any arguments. How can someone that comes with arguments waste the time of someone that only calls names ?

But you seem to lack the inteligence to understand what I actually said.
Pherhaps some people have a more liberal point of view, can I remember you that our point of view doesn't change the situation. Do you understand that ?
If there IS a God that only accepts people that follow the muslim laws, then we can all have the opinion that God should be liberal, it won't change anything.

Your idea about the sence of life doesn't infect the sence of life at all

Thus I return to my questions (again)
but you seem to miss the point of them.
1. How can you give sence to your life
2. What's the sence of life

Can you answer both of them, or will perform some more blatant flaming and name calling.

CyberShy

[Robert]

Are those the ones who say we can only be saved through faith (as the Bible clearly states), or only through works (as the Bible clearly states), or only by predestination (as the Bible clearly states)?

The bible doesn't state that at all (through works)
Neither does the bible state predestination.

Old Dutch Catholics is another branch off. They are also open to other religions.

Thus....... being liberal automaticly means you're right ?
Pherhaps God isn't liberal ?
I am not liberal to my girlfriend. I only accept her if she loves me and no-one else. Do you blame me for that as well ?

They are bigots because they claim a monopoly on God. They say Muslims are not going to heaven.

I do not claim God.
I have an opinion about God. I think my opinion is right (otherwise it wouldn't be my opinion, nobody holds an opinion he disagrees with)

And if I say that God would be like this and that, why would I claim God more then someone who says God is liberal and tolerant ? Those people claim God as well. I have an opinion about God (loves everyone but accepts only those who love hem in return) and you have an opinion about God (loves everyone, whatever everyone loves)

Your claim is either as valid or as invalid as mines.
And like I said: I hope everyone will go to heaven. I wish exactly the same as you do, but I just have the idea that it won't be that wasy. Unfortunately.

The crap theory that liberals are automaticly good and non-liberals are wrong and claim God is a contradiction interminus.

I've been down the road Cybershy and PatRussel are trying to take me many times, so I don't feel like wasting more time and energy going down it by getting into a prolonged debate. They won't convince me they aren't religious bigots and I'm not going to convince them they can "save" me.

I can't remember that I have ever talked with you about these topics. And I've never seen any argument from your side.

And I'm sure you won't come with any counter arguments this time either. You'll put up stuff like "I'm not going to waste my time" or blatant name calling.

CyberShy

[Ted Striker]

I hope everyone will go to heaven. I wish exactly the same as you do, but I just have the idea that it won't be that wasy. Unfortunately.

So you're a bigot! You don't doubt at all that you will go to heaven but have automatically dismissed everyone else, covering it up with this, "probably," crap.

Whatever man. That's not what you say in discussions at church so don't try and bs everybody hear by covering it up with wishy washy smoke and mirrors.

Be a man and stand behind your beliefs.

You've already told me your answers to your own questions are invalid! To answer your own questions, you must have a firm and unwavering belief that you are right in the answer. But you respond with this:

I have an opinion about God. I think my opinion is right (otherwise it wouldn't be my opinion, nobody holds an opinion he disagrees with)

And if I say that God would be like this and that, why would I claim God more then someone who says God is liberal and tolerant ? Those people claim God as well. I have an opinion about God (loves everyone but accepts only those who love hem in return) and you have an opinion about God (loves everyone, whatever everyone loves)

Your claim is either as valid or as invalid as mines.

So you see, if you REALLY are open to everyone's opinions, your questions would have multiple answers.

--->However you asked them EXPECTING A PARTICULAR ANSWER.

They are moot to say the least. But if it gives you peace of mind to have a particular answer to your questions (the ones they gave to you at Campus Crusade to tell people like me when you get into this kind of debate every 5 minutes) then that's great.

But it's still bigoted.

[Robert]

So you're a bigot! You don't doubt at all that you will go to heaven but have automatically dismissed everyone else

I do not dismiss anybody, but I believe everybody who believes in Jesus as their savior will spend eternity with Jesus.
That's why I believe in Jesus, I want to spend eternity with him.

It's not: "It's my opinion thus it's true"
It's more: "I think that's the true, that's why I believe it"

That's not what you say in discussions at church

You doubt that I say in 'discussions in church' that I hope everybody will get into heaven ? Of course I do.
Everybody in (my) church hopes everybody will get into heaven.

It's really horrific if there are people that wish people will end up in hell.
I tell you, I wish nobody died during the WTC terrorosm.
I really wish that would never have happened.
But it did happen. I'm sure it happened.
Does that make me a bigot ?

Be a man and stand behind your beliefs.

What does you think taht I'm not standing behind my beliefs ?

You've already told me your answers to your own questions are invalid!

I did ?

So you see, if you REALLY are open to everyone's opinions, your questions would have multiple answers.

The first question would.
The 2nd has only one answer.

Pherhaps that answer is "All answers are right"
But the answer can't be "Jesus is God" and "Jesus is not God" at the same time.

However you asked them EXPECTING A PARTICULAR ANSWER.

No, for sure not with the first question.
I know that different people have different answers to the 2nd question. But that doesn't mean they're all right. I'm not the person that decides if the answers are right, but I hope that people realize that they might need to come up with an answer during life.

The only two cases in which people don't have to answer the question are:
1. There is no sence of life
2. all answers are right.

But if it gives you peace of mind to have a particular answer to your questions

Now you mix up question 1 and question 2.
Question 1 is important to have some peace of mind.
And of course that has everything to do with your opinion about question 2. But question 2 doesn't try to give peace of mind. It tries to find the truth.

The truth is something different then peace of mind.
I can have completely peace of mind by being a christian and being wrong at the same time. In that case Q1 has been answered right and Q2 is wrong.

During life Q1 is important.
After life Q2 is important.
I think there are too many people trying to answre Q1 so that they forget Q2 will be important one day. (unless the answer is "There are no answers" or "All answers are right")

But it's still bigoted

something is bigoted if I think this while I hope that ?
I think people starve in africa but I hope they won't.
Am I a bigot now ?

CyberShy

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by CyberShy

The bible doesn't state that at all (through works)
Neither does the bible state predestination.

Salvation is through faith alone:

Mk.16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Jn.3:18, 36 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Rom.1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth .... As it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Rom.3:20 "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Rom.3:28 "A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Rom.4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?"

Rom.4:13 "For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

Rom.5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Gal.2:16 "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

Gal.3:11-12 "The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith."

Eph.2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

Salvation is through good works alone:

Ps.62:12 "For you render to each one according to his works."

Jer.17:10 "I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Mt.12:37 "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Mt.16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Mt.19:17 "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jn.5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Rom.2:6, 13 "Who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified."

2 Cor.5:10 "For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

2 Cor.11:15 "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

Jas.2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

Jas.2:17 "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Jas.2:21-25 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17 "The Father, who without pariality judges according to each one's work."

Faith and works are irrelevant, God predestined your fate before you were born:

Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Thessalonians 2:11-13 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"

It isn't possible to be a "Biblical" Christian, there are too many different contradictory interpretations. Calvinists believe they're the predestined Elect, most other fundies believe in salvation through faith alone, most "liberal" Christian denominations believe that good works are all that matters (i.e. good non-Christians will go to Heaven).

[Bas]

Could you define 'sense', CyberShy? And after that, explain for what fundamental reason life, nature, the universe, whatever should make 'sense' in the way you just defined?

[Ted Striker]

Am I a bigot now?

Yep.

Here are the REAL answers--->

There are three religious truths:
1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
2. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the
Christian faith.
3. Baptists do not recognize each other in the liquor store or at
Hooters.

[PatRussell]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Why? Aside from an annoying bit of ignorance about Islam, everything they've said is true from a Christian perspective.

What in my original statement shows an ignorance about Islam? The only determining factor as to whether one goes to Heaven is faith in Christ and Christ alone. You cannot call Christ a great teacher and deny his claims to deity. Either He is the greatest teacher of all time and the son of God (as he claims) or he is a raving lunatic, there is no middle ground.

Originally posted by Ted Striker

Just exactly WHICH Christians would those be? There are many Christian churches which are more tolerant of other religions. Unitarians and Old Dutch Catholic comes to mind.

There are many groups which claim the name of Christ but will also deny or write off his teachings. Can they really call themselves Christian?

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by PatRussell

You cannot call Christ a great teacher and deny his claims to deity. Either He is the greatest teacher of all time and the son of God (as he claims) or he is a raving lunatic, there is no middle ground.

Let's call these 1 and 2. Here are three more:

3. Jesus never existed, he's an amalgamation of myths.

4. Jesus was a con-artist, like many modern "faith-healers".

5. Jesus has been extensively misquoted (after all, he never wrote anything in the Bible).

[Ted Striker]

There are many groups which claim the name of Christ but will also deny or write off his teachings. Can they really call themselves Christian?

Hey look, another bigot!

PatRussell how dare those heathens worship God and claim to do so in the name of Christ?

[Ted Striker]

5. Jesus has been extensively misquoted (after all, he never wrote anything in the Bible).

-Not to mention the accounts of his life were written 20 years after he died at the EARLIEST, most were done even later than that.

-Not to mention that there are many many many many many many many Christian writings that were done during that period which were more open to other religions

-Not to mention that the Catholic Church "edited" the Bible over the years and decided what went in and what didn't.

The Gospel of Thomas, for example, speaks of tolerance of other religions yet isn't included in the Bible.

I suggest some of you zealots read up on the Gnostic writings, for example.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by PatRussell
What in my original statement shows an ignorance about Islam?

I was refering to CS, not you. Don't internalize things so much.

Jack: Thank you for admiting that I was correct earlier.

[Chowlett]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless

Let's call these 1 and 2. Here are three more:

3. Jesus never existed, he's an amalgamation of myths.

That at least is easily dealt with. The Roman historian Josephus notes that a young rebel by the name of Jesus, from the town of Nazereth, was put to death for insurrection around the year 33AD.

I don't have the time to get into this argument seriously atm, maybe later.