What Should Happen to George W. Bush?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ramo
Ummm... yes Dino, that's what I posted...

Have I mentioned how much I hate the internet connection I'm on right now? Damn university!

[drake]

I don't know what "national security" issues the state wants to use as an excuse to throw people in prison, but I don't think it deserves this much discretion.

Why does it have to be an "excuse" ramo? Why can't you believe that theres actually legitimate evidence that ties these people to terrorism? Just because you don't have it in your hands, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Terrorists start going to civilian court and it's OJ all over again. A goddam dog and pony show for the media.

Did it ever occur to you that the gov't might abuse the ability of placing whoever it wants in detention indefinitely?

It has actually!

But unlike you, I don't believe it will be abused! When it is, let me know so you can tell me I'm wrong

What "little investigation?" These laws affect all federal investigations.

The act was created specifically to deal with terrorism. It was born from the rubble of the wtc and pentagon. It never would have even been considered had not an attack on the domestic level occured.

It will dissolve sooner than later. All it is is a patch. A quick fix for a greater problem. It is not a long term solution and it is not going to effect this country in the way you tell me it will imo.

By backing countries with some of the worst human rights records in the region, such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia, you don't make many friends.

Who can you back in the ME that doesnt have some issues with human rights? Who can you back in the world who at some point in history hasnt had human rights issues?

Ramo, many of these me countries philosphies are not compatible with the west or western ideals. What is the US to do? Go into exile? Sever all ties? It's a huge catch 22, and until some of these me countries get out of the dark ages, it always will be!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ramo
As for enemy sabatours, that's a technical point which does not apply to the provision concerning indefinite detention of immigrants.

I thought we were talking about military tribunals not denying people thier writ of habeas corpus. My mistake.

[Ramo]

Just because you don't have it in your hands, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just because you imagine national security issues, doesn't mean they exist.

But unlike you, I don't believe it will be abused! When it is, let me know so you can tell me I'm wrong

It has been abused, at least a variation of the same law that was struck down a few months ago, where indefinite detention was permitted if the person committed the crime, and repatriation was impossible. In such cases, the defendents were indefinitely detained, despite already finishing their sentences.

With so much more discretion, the problem would be undoubtedly worse.

It never would have even been considered had not an attack on the domestic level occured.

Yep, national threats tend to breed fascist legislation.

It will dissolve sooner than later. All it is is a patch.

I wish I could have as much faith as you in the gov't, but when civil liberties are ceded, it's generally a long while till they are given back. I have little doubt the USA PATRIOT Act will be renewed after the war in Afghanistan is over.

Who can you back in the ME that doesnt have some issues with human rights?

My point would be that we have no business over there, at all.

Who can you back in the world who at some point in history hasnt had human rights issues?

"At some point" isn't relevant. Now is.

Ramo, many of these me countries philosphies are not compatible with the west or western ideals.

Which ideals? Imperialism?

What is the US to do? Go into exile? Sever all ties?

Stop funding terrorism and terrorists (states can suppor terror too) would be a fine start.

[Ecthy]

he should have his **** ripped off

[drake]

So we should become isolationist ramo? Close our eyes and make all our problems disappear by hiding from them?

National security issues transparent? Remember those two little planes crashing into those two little towers in NYC? Hmm. well if that isn't evidence enough that national security needs a bit of work, I don't know what is. What, do you need a few nukes detonated to feel like we have a legitimate concern ramo?

Imperialism is not a US or a western philosphy. Its a human trait. The biggest want to remain the biggest, and the smaller always want to get bigger. Ugly. Nasty. But thats human nature for ya.

I was more referring to capitalism and our liberal ways.

[Ramo]

So we should become isolationist ramo? Close our eyes and make all our problems disappear by hiding from them?

No, but we should show a little bit of moral judgement in who we sleep with. For instance, states that support genocide (Turkey or Indonesia, for instance) are bad.

National security issues transparent? Remember those two little planes crashing into those two little towers in NYC?

Which national security issues are present in prosecuting plane hijackers?

I was more referring to capitalism and our liberal ways.

The US supports capitalism? Adam Smith would roll over in his grave. Our neo-mercantilist trade policy (or imperialism, in other words) on the other hand is problem these countries have with the US.

[drake]

As I said ramo, imperialism is human nature. Have and have nots. Strong and the weak. Thats how every nation on the top of the power graph (cheesy civ reference), has acted and will always act! Point the finger at the US, but it will be that way until it is un-seated and a bigger kid moves into the block. When that day comes, this new neighbor will also be imperialistic. Unless we evolve to a state that isn't inhererntly competitive, this way will never change.

I can promise you ramo, that we aren't the only "civilized" country that is sleeping with turkey and indonesia either

In a perfect world, with no greed, no jealousy and no hate, there wouldn't be such a thing as imperialism. But this isn't a perfect world, and human nature is to strive to be the best. And when the best, stay the best.

[Ramo]

Again, what security issues are present in a trial prosecuting hijackers?

Unless we evolve to a state that isn't inhererntly competitive, this way will never change.

Which is why we need to minimize the state's power. If you remember, I am an anarchist.

I can promise you ramo, that we aren't the only "civilized" country that is sleeping with turkey and indonesia either

I didn't say we were.

And when the best, stay the best.

That's an atrocious belief. We have to pile huge amounts of trade barriers, starve the peoples of other nations to "stay the best?"

[drake]

Again, what security issues are present in a trial prosecuting hijackers?

Not sure what you are asking for here, thats why I didnt answer. My pea brain no comprehend

That's an atrocious belief. We have to pile huge amounts of trade barriers, starve the peoples of other nations to "stay the best?"

I wasn't saying it was right ramo, or even that I like the idea. Just talking about human nature and the desire for power. And maintaining power.

But I have to ask, do other countries NEED us? Does the USA HAVE to trade with a country to make them succesful? We the people just as poor and destitute before the US became a superpower? YES! Why is it suddenly the US's responsibility? How can it be criticized for making decisions based on business? Business runs this world of ours!

Is the US really starving anyone or are the people starving because of over-population, lack of education and lack of a decent government? Truth is, the US isn't starving anyone.

Why must the US support every poor country? And why, when it does,(well not EVERY poor country) do people say that the US should mind it's own business?

I'm going home ramo, I'll check your responses in the morning.

[Ramo]

Does the USA HAVE to trade with a country to make them succesful?

Thing is, we enforce free trade on our corner of the third world (Latin America), but we (and most Western nations) have heavy trade barriers ourselves. That means their economies don't develop adequetely (ergo, the comment about starvation).

Why must the US support every poor country? And why, when it does,(well not EVERY poor country) do people say that the US should mind it's own business?

I never said anything about supporting every third world country (whatever that means).

Not sure what you are asking for here, thats why I didnt answer. My pea brain no comprehend

When I asked about national security issues during trials, you brought up the WTC incident. I was wondering which security issues you are referring to, exactly.

[markusf]

http://www.startribune.com/stories/843/730512.html

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- The Justice Department's compliance with a federal civil liberties law may have thwarted the FBI's Minneapolis field office from uncovering key clues to the terrorist plot that led to attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.

In early September, a couple of weeks after arresting suspected Islamic terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui in the Twin Cities, FBI officials in Minneapolis sought approval from headquarters for a special counterintelligence surveillance warrant authorizing them to open his computer hard drive, federal law-enforcement sources said Tuesday. The warrant was denied.

The U.S. attorney's office in Minneapolis had simultaneously requested approval from the Justice Department for the warrant, the sources said.

Moussaoui, 33, a French citizen, was arrested Aug. 17 after fight instructors at a training center in Eagan grew suspicious after he said he wanted to learn how to fly a commercial jet, but not how to take off or land, law-enforcement officials have said.

He was detained on a minor immigration charge -- his visa had expired -- and because he had aroused other suspicions.

But the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.

The decision, first reported by Newsweek, meant that investigators couldn't get a glimpse inside Moussaoui's computer until after the Sept. 11 hijackings. Within hours of the attacks, a multiagency terrorism task force in Minneapolis had linked him to Osama bin Laden, who is the prime suspect in the attacks.

In Moussaoui's computer drive, a law-enforcement source said, investigators found voluminous technical information about crop-dusting planes -- information that prompted the Federal Aviation Administration to temporarily ground the aircraft for fear that terrorists were seeking to use them to spray anthrax spores or toxic chemicals on U.S. cities.

Mohamed Atta, who is suspected of heading the terrorist plot and of flying American Airlines Flight 11 into the World Trade Center, looked over a crop-duster in Florida in the weeks before the attacks.

The handling of Moussaoui, who has refused to cooperate with investigators since his arrest, appears likely to be one of the many "what-ifs" that will haunt investigators as they look back on the worst terrorist act in U.S. history.

Had they seen the additional material, investigators also might have checked nationwide to see whether other Middle Easterners had recently enrolled in U.S. flight training schools.

U.S. Attorney Tom Heffelfinger and Ray Morrow, acting head of the FBI's Minneapolis field office, could not be reached for comment.

Newsweek reported that a number of investigators have theorized that Moussaoui was originally supposed to have been aboard United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in western Pennsylvania after several passengers apparently attempted to overpower the knife-wielding terrorists. The FBI has said that four hijackers were aboard that flight, while the other three aircraft each had five terrorists.

After his arrest, the FBI ran Moussaoui's name through an international law-enforcement network and learned from French intelligence officials that he was suspected of having ties to a terrorist group, law-enforcement sources said.

But a law-enforcement source in Washington said FBI headquarters officials and officials of the Justice Department's Office of Intelligence Policy Review agreed that, despite this information, the evidence in hand was insufficient to justify a warrant. The law permits such warrants, wiretaps and other surveillance measures only if there is evidence that the suspect is an agent of a foreign power or a terrorist group.

Moussaoui lived in London before arriving in late February in Norman, Okla., to attend Airman Flight School. He had been in Minnesota less than a week when he was arrested.

[Scipio Centaurus]

I took the 'worse than impeachement' option. Anyone notice how easy it has become for the US to mount Crusades against third world nations since King George I was first elected and King George II siezed power after the [character] assasination and follow up coup? I don't count Presidents named George prior to the Bush clan as Kings.

In fact, since King George I, it is becoming clear that US Presidents are actually attacking other nations simply to advance personal agendas ranging from bolstering sagging popularity ratings to ramming otherwise un-attainable legislation down the throats of the citizens of this great country.

Speaking of appropriate action for Dubya, how about we exile him and the rest of the Bush clan. They should have no trouble finding some fascist country that supports their war-mongering christians-only philosophy.

BTW. What happens when we discover that Bin Laden has escaped to Beijing or Moscow, and the governments there tell us to blow when we demand his surrender? [Hopefully we can get some genius to suggest that we rise up and crush those nations...]

So let's see...

> Secret Military Tribunals w/ no right to face accuser and no right to see evidence. Please don't waste my tax dollars on this juvenile nonsense. Just kill 'em on sight. No need for a trial...
> Warrantless Search & Siezure w/o Notification. You come home and find your home ransacked by unknown entities - your computer and other perosnal files taken - because some government informant implicated you in return for a reduced sentence in some other crime, and the responsible government agency doesn't even have to admit that they searched the place.
> Expanded Surveillance to include Intercept of Internet Traffic content. Carnivore traps actual content on ALL email taversing the infected ISP's mail servers, Echelon, etc.
> Warrantless Wiretap for any Criminal Investigation. There is no requirement that the investigation be related to terrorism.
> Banking/Business reporting of all cash transactions. All banks and now all businesses are required to report any large 'all cash' retail transactions. You are assumed to be laundering money for some nefarious purpose.

Next thing you know, some imbecile will suggest that anyone who says anything negative about the Bush administration should leave the country! Please. Can you spell 'Sedition Act'.

Sounds pretty damn fascist to me.

You get what you voted for. Err, sorry. You get what the Supreme Court appoints for you.

You want my alternative? Sure. We START by pulling back all US military forces from the 100+ nations [that's US troops in more than 50% of all the nations in the world, BTW] around the world where the US currently has them stationed. Notice how few terrorist attacks have been made against Switzerland? Think about it.

We then use existing International Police and Investigative Agencies and powers along with polite and respectful diplomatic maneuvering with othr soveriegn nations, to try to identify, locate and extradite anyone who can be satisfactorily shown to be indictable. Does this mean that some of the masterminds of the 911 attack might get away? Sure. Life is tough. But we will move on.

- Scipio

PS. Anyone wanna start a thread on the ethics of cloning?

[David Floyd]

Scipio

[shade]

He should be "plastinated" by Gunther von Hagens.
(then he could be placed in position wrestling with the plastinated corps of Osama Bin Laden )

Shade