Karl Marx's "Communist Manifesto"

[Saint Marcus]

Well, I'm fond of utilitarianism, so the whole thing with Communism not working anywhere it's been tried (unless voluntarily and/or in small groups) is pretty much enough for me.

Russia, Cuba, China, North Korea, Vietnam weren't ready yet. They were too underdeveloped. According to Marx communism can only succeed in highly developed countries

A person cannot lose his personality, motivation, and instinct for the good of the state. Socialism described by marx has never and will never work..It is simply impractical and woefully inferior to capitalism. You cannot just produce the "needs" of a society and ignore the wants.

More raping of Marx' ideas

Dalgetti you are wrong, since the begining of time man has lived and thrived under Capitalism. A cave man gathers food for himself and his family. He simply does not care for the man in the cave next door. Thats not his concern..Even the earlier civilizations were capitalist. Eygpt, Greece, Babylon, and what little we know about ancient Mesopotamia. There have always been merchants and traders, merchants and traders work not for the state...but for themselves. And in ancient times ; except for taxes for some despotic king. They kept majority of what they made.

Care to explain the concepts of serfdom, slavery, feudalism, aristocarcy, nobility, etc? According to Marx, if you actually rad him you'd know, capitalism is the capitalism of after the French Revolution.

It is an excellent essay, I bet your friend's brother got an A+ for that one!

What level? kindergarten? C'mon...if I'd hand something like that in I'd get an F for sure, cause it's filled with stupid and ignorant ideas of someone who's never read Marx.

Neo-marxists expend a tremendous amount of effort to whitewash this failure, but they cannot deny the fact that no one has ever successfully implemented the philosophies of Karl Marx. Every attempt to implement marxism has turned into a disastrous dictatorship, in which the proletariat loved the communist lifestyle so much that they would risk their very lives to escape it.

Well DUH. It has only been tried in underdeveloped countries, while Marx specifically says it can only work in developed countries.

I'm only attempting to highlight obvious logical and observational errors in "The Communist Manifesto," and to show how ludicrous it is to use this document as the blueprint for a modern society.

and ignoring the fact that Marx has written tens of thousands of pages besides the Manifesto, that explain a lot more in detail. Easy to base your opinion of one of the greatest philosophers ever on one very small work of his.


Now I rest my case, and hope people would please stop raping Marx' ideas. For anyone who's pro or anti Marx...please go read his works, other than the Manifesto. Preferably in Marx' native language, German. Some subtle notions are lost in the translation.

[Stefu]

Well, I'm fond of utilitarianism, so the whole thing with Communism not working anywhere it's been tried (unless voluntarily and/or in small groups) is pretty much enough for me.

[Saint Marcus]

jada jada

why not talk about the massive amount of books Marx' published, besides the Manifesto?

If people who actually read his works they'll see Marx in a completely different light.

Also note that Marx is the philosopher of capitalism, not communism. Marx is very much pro-capitalism. Capitalism is needed to develop the countries, to educate the people. Marx writes a lot about the positive and negative sides of capitalism, and he writes very little about communism.

Some examples of complete ignorance of Marx' ideas:

The problem with Marx's grandiose vision of social engineering is that it assumes humans will play by rules which are against their nature

According to Marx, the way things are now, especcially in Europe (socialism mixed with capitalism), are against humans' nature. Everything Marx wrote is about mankind's nature, not against it.

and that a large industrialized economy is simple enough to be centrally managed

Marx was against centralisation, and wanted things controlled locally. Like Lenin wanted/tried.

It is a laudable goal to improve society, but it should be done through gradual change, not "revolution".

Like Marx didn't think of did. Read his other works, PLEASE. About this idea Marx said it was a socialist utopia. Utopia meaning an unrealisable paradise. According to him it's against human nature to achieve a balance between labour and income through gradual changes. And he was right, since their still isn't a balance and people work for less than they produce.

Humans won't work as hard without self-interest to motivate them, as anyone familiar with the behaviour of our evolutionary ancestors will quickly realize.

Sigh. Marx didn't want total equality of income. He wanted labourers to earn as much as they produce. Therefor, if someone works better/harder/more he'll get more money than someone who doesn't.

The first section of "The Communist Manifesto" is a long-winded and repetitive rant about the evils of capitalism

quite true. Now please read his other works which gives tonnes of good things about capitalism. Marx even says capitalism is inevitable and neccesary.

From another thread: Marxism isn't democratic

Actually it is. Marx wants a communist democracy, and says the ancient Polis system had it's benefits in this regard.

The second section of "The Communist Manifesto" is a long-winded and repetitive advertisement for communism

Now please read his other works. Please.

By Marxism standerds...Computers would not be allowed for varouis reasons

Makes NO sense at all. Anything that can in some way help people produce more is only good according to Marx.




Now people, please stop raping Marx if you have read nothing of him besides part of the Manifesto. The guy wrote more than Hegel for crying out loud. He also was the philosopher of capitalism, not communism. And please stop this third grade bashing of things you don't understand. Please.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lonestar
So, what you're really saying is:


"I have no idea how to answer this, so I'm going to ask a Marxist friend better at twisting words than me to help with th' rebuttal. Until then, I'll just bring out the whole ' you took it out of context ' arguement"


Gotcha Che

Ha ha. No, I'll tackle this myself, tonight, though you're seriously cutting into my CivIII time.

You plop down a huge essay like that, and you want me to critique according to your time table? Not all of us are students, chum. Some of us have to sell our labor-power for a living.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Mark L
He also was the philosopher of capitalism, not communism.

Che's going to kill you for that.

[Lonestar]

::Looks out from behind his Adam Smith Bio:::

Is this the best the Apolyton Commies can muster? Off with you!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, Lonestar, there are loads of communists/socialists that don't agree with Marx. He was simply the 'kick the door down' guy. After him, the deluge, basically. I guess the basic ideals are somewhat ideals of communists, but even then it breaks down. Some groups aren't against the ideal of private property. After all, those who campaign for worker-owned businesses are socialists, but don't neccessarily wish to do away with private property.

So, basically, depends on which communist you talk to .

[TCO]

Lonestar, you're raping a dead horse. nobody pays attention to
Marx anyway.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Lonestar
::Looks out from behind his Adam Smith Bio:::

Is this the best the Apolyton Commies can muster? Off with you!

I read about the first 5 lines of the tripe you posted before I started getting snoozy. And I have read the Manifesto. And Das Kapital. And large parts of Wealth of Nations.

[TCO]

I haven't read more than a few paragraphs of either. Is the Manifesto more turgid?

[chequita guevara]

Oye vey, this is a nine page document in Word. It's gonna take me more than one night to tear into this, especially since I have other work to do. Oh the fun never stops. And you wanted me to respond to the whole thing this afternoon. Hah!

GP, che kills no one. He only threatens to have people killed, and then go out to commie resteraunts with them. (Hi, JohnT, got the pictures, but have to color correct them.)

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ah, so che is all talk and no action .

[TCO]

Che,

I never accused you of killing anyone. What are you talking about?

I usually tease you for your lack of appropriate communist ideals (truth is what ever we want it to be. Lead with a gun, etc.) Need to slit a few throats to be a good Leninist/Stalinist (i.e. thug).

[Q Classic]

i read it, and i read a little more of marx.

good book:

marx-engels reader, a thick red book printed on bible paper.

by bible paper, i mean the thin stuff, the reaaaallllly thin stuff.

it has all the major works, including das kapital.


as for the manifesto, i must say, it was one of the less enjoyable things of his to read.

i tune out when supposedly persuasive things stop sounding reasonable, when they start sounding like a diatribe... the manifesto definitely fits that category.

ah, well.

it is a manifesto, after all.

what are those if not loud stump banging position papers ?

[TCO]

So boring unreasonableness is allowed for Marxists, or required? Or just preferred?