Kabul falls

[Dr Spin]

I always find the American faith in technology touching

It's not a faith, it's a prediction.

Besides... the bombs are already paid for, and they DO have a shelf life...

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I always find the American faith in technology touching

Yes, and this is probably why your government spends alot of money buying our weapons.

[Alexander's Horse]

Well OBL has said the U.S. is a paper tiger because all that has to happen is for U.S. to suffer a few casualties and the public mood will shift against further involvement. It will be interesting to see how the American public copes with that. There are already reports that Americans are "bored" with the war. Shows the level folks are on - and not just in the states, in other Western countries as well.

[faded glory]

Unfreakin believable

MSNBC just reported that the Uzbeks and tajiks are squabbling over several disputed Ethnic districts in Kabul.

well lets just get OBL and get the hell out....Let all go to hell anyway. As thats were it appears headed

[TCO]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Well OBL has said the U.S. is a paper tiger because all that has to happen is for U.S. to suffer a few casualties and the public mood will shift against further involvement. It will be interesting to see how the American public copes with that. There are already reports that Americans are "bored" with the war. Shows the level folks are on - and not just in the states, in other Western countries as well.

It depends on the mission, AH. For "playing policeman" the public is less amenable to casualties than for fighting enemies.

Do you seriously think that the US would not target fleeing Taleban to the extent that they could (the situation evolved fast of course).

Mobius, you're clueless. Some kind of anti-military/anti-US bias has blinded you. AH and I can sit and discuss things rationally. You are way off in lala land.

In war, most casualties have been inflicted on "broken" armies. That's why discipline is important. So people keep doing their jobs when the **** hits the fan.

[Tolls]

faded:
"well lets just get OBL and get the hell out....Let all go to hell anyway. As thats were it appears headed"

In other words don't bother attempting to sort anything out and leave a nice derelict country behind that's a perfect hiding place for other terrorist organisations...or had you forgotten what this whole thing was supposed to be about?

GP:
I'm guessing MOBIUS would have been opposed to the bombing of withdrawing German forces in '44 at Falaise-Argentan...

[Ted Striker]

A reporter on CNN has said there are wide anti-Taliban revolts in both the East and the South.

Mentioned in particular was a strong revolt in Kandahar.

The House of Cards continues to topple...

[Thue]

well lets just get OBL and get the hell out....

Both american forces killing him and american forces holding him prisoner would give an outroar in the muslim world.
Enraged muslim afghans executing him in anger on the other hand would be a perfect solution for USA.

[Ted Striker]

Mmmmm good idea. Let's let the NA kill him and maybe we can jail some of his little b1tch ass deputies.

Like that idiot from Egypt, the Doctor...

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
One thing that always puzzled me about the Highway of death was why would the Iraqi's stay with their vehicles? Surely most of em escaped on foot? If you followed the road by walking parallel at about 500 metres you should be okay.

The road was passing through minefields. Some tried to flee through the minefields and were killed too.

[mindseye]

please could someone point out to me just one military vehicle in that mass of charred remains

In the article you posted there were several mentions of military vehicles, including "tanks and armored cars"!

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Mobius,

That article is complete rubbish.

This one line pretty much shows how much bullsh1t it's throwing out there:

yeah right. The whole f ucking deal was on the news here constantly. Reporters were even there on site. They told us everything that happened. They showed the convoy being destroyed and the aftermath and the bodies.

So the whole document is rubbish because you can find fault with less than 3% of it?

Maybe 'racist' was a little strong - but murder most definitely isn't!

No go Derek - I'd like to see you disprove the more salient points, like the fact that Saddam had announced he was withdrawing his forces in complaince with the US resolution, the fact that this operation occurred on the eve of the cessation of hostilities, the fact that thousands of defenceless people were murdered, or that the US continued to pound them into dust until every vehicle had been destroyed - this wasn't just destruction, it was total annihilation!

There was no "hiding" going on here.

That's supposed to make it better!?!?

Also----> The most benevolent Sadaam Hussein withdrew these forces to stop fighting? Bullsh1t. Nobody knew at that time whether the coalition was going all the way to Baghdad or not. This was CLEARLY a strategic withdrawal.

Who gives a flying rat's arse about what Saddam thinks? That most of the troops were conscripts means they didn't even want to be there in the first place! To a large degree they were innocent pawns! If you want to get someone, get the leader - get Saddam! You cut off the head!

By the way, if they were really so "peaceful," why did they take their tanks with them?

Well not all of them did, did they? Besides, a tank is a form of transport that affords a little protection - perhaps they felt safer in a tank than a car? Besides, they would have probably faced a court martial on their return for the abandonment of equipment - or desertion!

Holy f ucking sh1t, you and chegitz would have us believe Sadaam Hussein is the next Mother Theresa.

Where did I ever say that!!?

Let's just say that Saddam lost his monopoly on atrocities when the US committed it's wholesale slaughter...

Can you blame your protege for his crimes? After all, it was the US that built him up and supported him! Saddam is America's creation in the same way the OBL is - now they coming home to roost!

Also, let's not forget the story about one raid on the highway, where several dozen Apaches descended on the convoy. The battle group actually hovered above the convoy and gave the guys time to get out of their vehicles and clear the area before opening fire.

One raid!?!?! Of hundreds!!! Well that's jolly nice of those 36-60 Apaches (Spell OVERKILL!), what about the B-52s, F-16's, Tomahawk missiles - everything else? Is a tomahawk actually programmed to fly about a bit to give people time to escape? Is there a guy in the B52 with binoculars waiting to see that everyone's left their vehicles...

I'd like to see that link please!

Horrible article, has lots of sources, but they are taken out of context and skewed.

It has LOTS of sources that you haven't questioned - you know the important ones - until you question those legitimate sources I can't take your accusations seriously...

Mobius, you're clueless. Some kind of anti-military/anti-US bias has blinded you

Same with you, GP. So I'm clueless, why? Are you telling me that the Highway of Death didn't happen in the manner that it did, on the eve of the end of the war?

It's no good saying someone is clueless, unless you give good reason for your allegations...

GP:
I'm guessing MOBIUS would have been opposed to the bombing of withdrawing German forces in '44 at Falaise-Argentan...

No - for several reasons.

#1 The highway to Death occurred on the last two days of the war! Instead of with almost a year to go. The Germans were a professional force committed to continuing their fight, whereas the Iraqis were conscripts withdrawing in accordance with Coalition and UN demands!

#2 The German forces were in continuous contact with Allied forces - The Iraqis were on a desert road miles from the nearest allied ground unit (perhaps why they couldn't surrender! ). Therefore the Germans were still a threat to allied lives in a very big way!

#3 The Germans were technologically capable of shooting down allied warplanes - the Iraqis were not! Therefore the Germans were still a threat to allied lives in a very big way!

No, not Falaise - but maybe Dresden or Hiroshima or Nagasaki!

In the article you posted there were several mentions of military vehicles, including "tanks and armored cars"!

Yes there were Mindseye, but obviously not in the huge numbers the Americans are claiming in their attempts to justify their attack - otherwise the picture would show a higher incidence of military vehicles...

It was an unnecessary turkey shoot - murder!

Actions such as these IMO actually cost the US their ultimate prize of getting Saddam - without these atrocities, the US would have had longer to get Saddam before world opinion turned against them...

Here's the Gulf War Timeline

Day 42: Tuesday, Feb. 26

Brig. Gen. Richard Neal in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, says Iraqi forces are in "full retreat" with allied forces pursuing; Iraqi POWs number 30,000-plus, number to climb to 63,000.
Saddam Hussein announces Iraqi occupation forces will withdraw completely.
Residents of Kuwait City celebrate end to occupation. Resistance groups set up headquarters to control city.
U.S. Marine in Kuwait City says U.S. Embassy is back under U.S. control.
Day 43: Wednesday, Feb. 27

Kuwaiti troops raise emirate's flag in Kuwait City.
President Bush declares suspension of offensive combat and lays out conditions for permanent cease-fire.

So you see, this strike was unnecessary because the allies knew the reason for the withdrawal!!!

[DinoDoc]

I find it interesting that MOBIUS didn't comment on what Lefty said in his defense of the article he posted.

[Sikander]

Mobius you are seriously unbalanced. Rather than focus on the issue at hand, namely that the Allied strategy seems to be working and will save hundreds or thousands of times more lives by providing relief through recently liberated territory than were taken by American bombs you can't even take a breath before launching into another anti-American diatribe about the Gulf War. The article you quote was total crap, but you can't even leave a bunch of lies alone, you have to embellish from the thousands quoted by the article to tens of thousands ad nauseum. You are seriously emotionally disturbed, and all of your whining about humanitarian concerns is in fact a smokescreen for your hatred.

There are a lot of real eyewitness accounts of the highway of death story, (on one of which they found only 200 bodies on, a story corroborated by the origional Apache pilot who smoked vehicles on both ends of the convoy, and while waiting for reinforcements watched as the Iraqis abandoned the convoy and set off cross country on foot). Body counts support AH's assertion that the wise choice was to abandon the trapped convoy rather than wait around like a moron to be killed. But I won't bother looking up what ever links I can find online, because you won't let the facts or even an opposing viewpoint keep you from posting a mile long emoticon laden hate post. Spare us all.

Barely better is AH, who seems more upset that he is well on his way to losing his bet with MtG than he is about potential allied casualties if half of what he says turns out to be true. Fortunately he is as wrong about Afghanistan as he is ruthlessly self-centered. Guerrillas may thrive where they are loved, and survive where they are feared, but they die where they are neither loved nor feared, and that is the situation in a vast majority of Afghanistan.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Its warfare. It is lawful and expected to kill the enemy forces. You kill them when they are strong, when they are weak, when they are dug in, when they are in the open, when they are advancing, when they are standing still, when the are retreating. You kill them until eitheri they surrender or there is an cease fire. It the actual event here they were granted too much mercy, Bush having decleared a unitlateral cease fire when Hussein still had enough forces to conduct genocidal operations against ****es in the south and Kurds in the north. With better foresight, who should have killed tens of thousands more Iraqi forces, obliterating Husseins forces so that he would have to depend on coaliton forces to maintain a central goverment control over the Iraq countryside, with either a negotiated settlement as to Iraqs political future, or Hussein isolated in Bagdad and the Baath party strongholds. More dead Iraqi forces then would make for a much world, including for most Iraqis, today. To use the term "murder" is not mere hyperbole, it is a LIE.