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  • #421
    God, I'm taking a look at ef's '95/'00 data and its a freaking () minefield due to the US population revisions.

    OECD seems to do some "tweening" on the population figures, since their estimates of 1995 is 266.4M versus the Census Bureau's estimate for 1995 is 262.7M using the 1990 Census as a base.

    There is a lot of things going on when the EU-15 numbers '95 v. '00 are disaggregated. Austria, Belgium, Germany, and France did poorly versus the US. Spain, the UK, Ireland, and the Netherlands all did well.

    On an exchange rate basis, everybody got their hat handed to them, except Ireland, Mexico, the UK, Turkey, and central European countries. This would seem to make everybody feel like they're being left behind, when in actual fact, they're all treading water.
    Last edited by DanS; March 8, 2002, 14:24.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #422
      DanS,

      Might I call your attention to the notes at the bottom of my spreadsheet where I state "Population data is taken from the OECD labour force statistics, except for the USA which uses the latest estimates which I got at the BEA site." - According to the BEA their data for 1991-2000 "are consistent with the 2000 Census of Population".

      The OECD is still using population estimates based on the 1990 census - I have used the BEA data as a proxy and whilst they are not exactly the same the difference before 1990 was around 70,000 (or 0.03%).

      Looking at the difference between reported growth and the shares of the USA's GDP at PPP's in 1990-2000 it looks like the EU's growth was understated by around 0.4% a year - interestingly this is exactly the amount that the 'hedonic deflator' added to US growth between 1990-97 (data is not available for the old measure from 1998 onwards).


      Indeed if you adjust GDP per person for PPP's and the economic cycle (using the OECD's estimates of the output gap) then the Euro Zone caught up faster during the 1990's than it did during the 1980's:

      USA's 'Trend' GDP per head at PPP's as % of Euro Zone's:

      1980: 158%
      1990: 151%
      2000: 140%
      Last edited by el freako; March 8, 2002, 15:52.
      19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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      • #423
        Oh, OK. I was thinking that the note just referred to the 2000 population for the US, not the 1995 figure.

        Let me look at the numbers in that light.
        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

        Comment

        • #424
          Here's a link to the file.

          404 Error - Page Not Found
          http://www.schmelzer.org/ef/GDP%20data%20for%201995%20and%202000.xls
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment

          • #425
            Now, that’s one nice datasheet.

            Re the productivity data, it’s very tempting for me to dismiss them due lack of credibility, but if take them at face-value I’m wondering the following: if it’s possible to maintain that rate of productivity growth without similarly high investment growth, doesn’t that prove they’ve been wasting ahelluvalot of money the past few years? (sorry for taking the negative POV again )
            DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

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            • #426
              Man, you Euros' penchant for taxes is really getting me down. I'm trying to export a product at $500 a pop to Europe. To an American, that's $510 including shipping/handling. To a German, however, that's $650. Add on top of that Dollar endaka and we've got a nasty situation.

              Because the figure's so high, some potential German distributors want these (what I see as dishonest) business arrangements where they aren't charged too much for the hardware, but rather some nebulous "support" line item. Is this kind of arrangement common?

              In the US, my whole chain of import, production and sales is tax-free. Europe is charging for value that wasn't added in Europe. What a load of pure, streaming BS.
              Last edited by DanS; March 10, 2002, 13:44.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

              Comment

              • #427
                What are you talking about ? VAT ?

                "To a German, however, that's $650."

                Final consumer, or distributor ? Or Einfuhrumsatzsteuer at the importer ?

                "In the US, my whole chain of import, production and sales is tax-free. Europe is charging for value that wasn't added in Europe. What a load of pure, streaming BS."

                What, no sales taxes, nowhere ?

                Comment

                • #428
                  "What are you talking about ? VAT ?"

                  In Germany, 3% customs (reasonable) + 16% VAT (unreasonable), which is collected upon entry.

                  "Final consumer, or distributor ? Or Einfuhrumsatzsteuer at the importer ?"

                  Distributor.

                  "What, no sales taxes, nowhere ?"

                  On the whole, no. I import boards from Korea. No tax. Then I buy another board from California. No tax. After assembly, then shipping it to any customer in the US (ex-DC) is tax-free. I'm not ruling out the possibility that somebody in the chain might pay some small taxes on a component (in Korea?), but I know the bulk of it US-side is tax-free.

                  I slept on this. Yesterday I was pretty peeved that demand would be shot in places like Germany (I do about a 1/4 of my business in Germany!), but today I'm most concerned about the disparity in prices. Who do you think the German end-consumer is going to blame, when they see that they can get the board for $530 in the States, but over $700 in Europe? The government?
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #429
                    "On the whole, no. I import boards from Korea. No tax. Then I buy another board from California. No tax. After assembly, then shipping it to any customer in the US (ex-DC) is tax-free. I'm not ruling out the possibility that somebody in the chain might pay some small taxes on a component (in Korea?), but I know the bulk of it US-side is tax-free."

                    States with sales taxes ?

                    Anyway, the import-VAT will be deducted from the final-sale-VAT. First payment is from the importer, your distributor will be charged upon sale etc.

                    "Who do you think the German end-consumer is going to blame, when they see that they can get the board for $530 in the States, but over $700 in Europe? The government?"

                    Mostly an overvalued $. What "board" ?

                    Comment

                    • #430
                      "States with sales taxes ?"

                      Everybody has sales taxes, including DC. But sales tax doesn't apply when you ship things across state lines (or rather, collection is not enforced and nobody collects--been that way for the last couple hundred years). Since I haven't even sold a board to a DC customer, none of my sales have been subject to sales tax.

                      "Anyway, the import-VAT will be deducted from the final-sale-VAT."

                      Either way, the VAT is charged somewhere, which eventually creates the price disparity to end consumer.

                      "Mostly an overvalued $. What "board" ?"

                      People aren't going to blame an overvalued $. They can surf the internet and see that if they were in the US, they could get it drastically cheaper. I would not blame them for thinking that a US company is trying to stick it to them.

                      Re the board, it's the digital video input board that I talked about 3 or 4 months ago.
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                      Comment

                      • #431
                        "Everybody has sales taxes, including DC. But sales tax doesn't apply when you ship things across state lines.... Since I haven't even sold a board to a DC customer, none of my sales have been subject to sales tax."

                        "Either way, the VAT is charged somewhere, which eventually creates the price disparity to end consumer."

                        I don't get the point. If you had a 16 % sales tax in US state X, it would be exactly the same for the end consumer.

                        That they are not enforced across state lines is funny. Just shows that the EU is overtaking you on economic integration.

                        " They can surf the internet and see that if they were in the US, they could get it drastically cheaper."

                        After calculating the euro price, 13.8 % cheaper for VAT effect, assuming zero US sales taxes.

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                        • #432
                          "After calculating the euro price, 13.8 % cheaper for VAT effect, assuming zero US sales taxes."

                          Yes, 16% more expensive.

                          "If you had a 16 % sales tax in US state X, it would be exactly the same for the end consumer."

                          The point is as clear as the nose on my face. The end consumer will take a look at the advertised price in Germany and compare to the advertised price in the US and will start asking questions of me, not their governments.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #433
                            "The end consumer will take a look at the advertised price in Germany and compare to the advertised price in the US and will start asking questions of me, not their governments."

                            You advertise a tax free price ?

                            Anyway, put up a net price "X +VAT".

                            That's the way Metro does it.

                            People know that VAT is on virtually everything, and are smart enough to make that little calculation. If US net price = D net price after currency conversion, that will be no problem.

                            Comment

                            • #434
                              "You advertise a tax free price ?"

                              Of course.

                              Re advertising the net price, that's impossible. My customers are not the end consumer. In the US, they will advertise the price at which they're selling the board to the American end consumer.

                              Once the Germans start comparison shopping, they'll readily see the difference.
                              Last edited by DanS; March 11, 2002, 12:09.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #435
                                So what's the freakin' problem ?

                                You advertise it for 500 $ (+eventual sales taxes) or 560 ? (+eventual VAT).

                                If you are directly shipping to an end customer that has no VAT obligation, it's the end price anyway. Just as with your sales taxes intra-US, there is at least no enforcement of a VAT obligation of a non-EU business. There has been some discussion about closing this loophole esp for internet trade, but this is not the case yet AFAIK.

                                What advice did you get on that tax issue ?

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