New Evidence: Shroud of Turin Older Than Thought

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy


You know what. These cheapshots people are taking at me are really getting boring.

Well, if you want to make things more interesting, simply state the evidence or, if you prefer, the reasons for your views, eg:

Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

It's not good enough to say: "Read this article." "Watch this movie." "Read this book, which I don't have right now, but the relevant pages are 19 - 110."

[Rufus T. Firefly]

This is an honest question, or couple of questions:

Do other religions put this kind of emphasis on substantiating the reality of their stories? AFAIK, Jews aren't running around looking for the staff of Moses; Buddhists haven't made a fetishistic shrine out of the original tree under which Buddha achieved enlightenment; Hindu temples do not contain Actual Nail Clippings from the Many Fingers of Vishnu. The only other religion I know of that puts this kind of emphasis on its own historical/material basis is, interestingly enough, Islam.

Why is that?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Exactly. That puts the shroud well within the time of Jesus's death.

So, the shroud could be the cloth that was wrapped around the body of Christ.

If you wrap a long piece of cloth around somebody's head, then remove it, the image on the cloth will not look like a person's head at all.

You can try it on yourself. Smear some paint all over your face, then wrap some cloth entirely around it. The image will stretched out and will not look like you at all, because the proportions will be all wrong.

Or try to imagine removing the skin of somebody's head and spread it out flat.

It has something to do with projecting a 3D object on a flat surface.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Well, the markings on the shroud are consistent with the details accounted in the Bible on the death of Christ.

That can be easily explained by the Shroud being a counterfeit. IOW, it was manufactured at a later date with details taken from the bible.

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
You must know that the exact way in which Jesus Christ was killed brought him much more suffering than the way any other person in history has died.

You don't know beans.

For example, there's a really gruesome anicent Chinese execution method, which is carried out by cutting small slivers of flesh from the body, then the bleeding would be stopped by applying salt to the wound. It would take days to execute a person. Days.

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
If you want to know exactly what I'm talking about just watch The Passion of the Christ

Is that supposed to be documentary evidence?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
Does anyone here know what means to scourge someone? Think in ancient terms now.

I do, and I'm thinking it's infinitely preferable to having to go through one of these threads again.

Your assertion that Jesus's death was more horrible than any other in history shows a startling level of ignorance about ways to die, the history of torture, or even the history of judicial executions.

I suggest you do some serious research on, say, how individual people experience pain, American murders in the 20th Century, judicial executions in Europe from, oh, 1000 A.D. until the present day, et cetera.

As a starter, you could find out how the man who attempted to assassinate Louis XV was executed. I sincerely doubt Mr Gibson would even be allowed to attempt to film that. The first time I read the account I came close to vomiting, and that was without the aid of Mel's technicolour reproductions.


Rufus- some Buddhists do make a fuss about supposed footprints of Buddha, or a tooth of Buddha and some Muslims equally get excited about supposed hairs of the Prophet, or a cloak of his, and so forth.

[Proteus_MST]

Oh, yes,
in comparison to the execution of Damien even the methods of the japanese (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) pale

Here a transcript from the court:

When this will be done, he will be taken in the same tipcart to the Place de Grève and will be put on a scaffold. Then his breasts, arms, thighs, and legs will be tortured. While holding the knife with which he committed the said Parricide, his right hand will be burnt. On his tortured body parts, melted lead, boiling oil, burning pitch, and melted wax and sulfur will be thrown. Then four horses will pull him apart until he is dismembered

Taken from:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/242/

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Oh, yes,
in comparison to the execution of Damien even the methods of the japanese (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) pale

Here a transcript from the court:

Taken from:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/242/

Yes, it's certainly an 'enlightening' view of what passed for justice in the Enlightenment....

Unfortunately anyone who has had to study the history of the Inquisition, the Second World War, or knows about Japanese experiments on prisoners and Chinese civilians could digress at length on humanity's capacity for ingenious ways to prolong and inflict pain.

I have just finished rereading Heinz Heger's account of his experiences in the death camps and it proved as sobering an experience as it was the first time.

[Chemical Ollie]

I've read a book that seriously claimed that the Turin Shroud was a hoax made by Leonardo Da Vinci, by using a camera obscura and some chemicals. The face on the shroud would then be Da Vinci himself. He invented helicopters, submarines and parachutes 500 years or so before anyone else, so why not photography?

If this dating is correct, it proves that book wrong. Or at least that Da Vinci used a very old piece of cloth for his hoax.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
I've read a book that seriously claimed that the Turin Shroud was a hoax made by Leonardo Da Vinci, by using a camera obscura and some chemicals. The face on the shroud would then be Da Vinci himself. He invented helicopters, submarines and parachutes 500 years or so before anyone else, so why not photography?

If this dating is correct, it proves that book wrong. Or at least that Da Vinci used a very old piece of cloth for his hoax.

Surely the relevant points are: The Vatican/organized church is hardly a newbie when it comes to falsifying evidence- the Donation of Constantine being a prime case.

Secondly- we don't know how much technological expertise the ancients had or didn't have- as for instance a look at the Antikythera Device could tell us.

Thirdly- burial shrouds, parchment, mummy's corpses- they were all used and reused, for burials, for writing, illuminated manuscripts and even as medicine.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Heresson
And Boris, the technique needed to put such an image on the shroud was not possible until modern times.

People couldn't paint until modern times?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
But the real question is, are there any records in history of anyone suffering a death that was more horrifying than the death of Christ, especially execution records?

William Wallace suffered a far more horrifying death. As well, what are we remembering today, the liberation of the death camp, Aushwitz? I htink there are many other Jews who suffered a far more excruciating death than the Jew you worship.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy


Yes, the Gospels themselves are eyewitness accounts of the birth, life, death and ressurection of Christ.

Not one of the authors of the Gospels witnessed Jeshua's birth, his life, nor his crucifiction. They were all written well after his death.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


People couldn't paint until modern times?

Quite. Not only could they paint, they could also produce forgeries and fakes.

Heron of Alexandria could harness steam power, and alchemists were really rather sophisticated and ingenious given the limitations of their times.

Ancient fakes include a stone cruciform monument from Sippar, purporting to be from the reign of Manishtushu (known as a pious fraud, given that it is believed to have been perpetrated by temple priests to establish the great age of their temple and its revenues, to reinforce the temple's and priest's claims- mmm, sounds familiar....)

The Shabaka stone of the Nubian pharaoh of the same name, the Epistles of Phalaris, and then mediaeval forgeries by monks of course- the Decretals of Isidore, spurious Royal writs of English and Norman kings and the supposed Letter of Christ to Abgar.

People will believe what they desire to believe, and those people with a profit (prophet?) motive will make money from this.

[mindseye]

UR, thanks for again contributing the observation that the image is completely inconsistant with what one would expect from a cloth wrapped around a head. It simply won't look anything like the portrait-like visage on the shroud.

Mr. Nice Guy, please, please try UR's experiment. You don't have to use paint, just use water and a piece of soft cloth, or even very flexible paper. You will instantly see why the Shroud is an obvious phoney.

Originally posted by molly bloom

I do, and I'm thinking it's infinitely preferable to having to go through one of these threads again.

Has anyone seen Veronica's Handkerchief lately? Maybe I should check eBay ...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by mindseye





Has anyone seen Veronica's Handkerchief lately? Maybe I should check eBay ...

No, but I have an icon painted by St. Luke, three Holy Foreskins and a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

I'm thinking of selling Mother Theresa's left leg on ebay, too.

It's not actually hers, but I figure if I wrap it in a suitably correctly coloured tea towel, give it a plausible provenance, it should net me some money.