Teachers take a stand against anti-evolution teaching order

[Theben]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Public schools aren't about teaching the truth, they are political battlefields for liberals and conservatives to indoctrinate other people's children into their belief systems. So, satisfy both - teach both ideas.

Unfortunately, the result is schools seeking to pacify both- which results in a bland, inoffensive curriculum that bores the hell out of students and does little to prepare them for higher learning.

[Berzerker]

People here dont like people from other parts of the country (or even state) telling them what to teach their kids. Its true for liberals and conservatives, so let people deal with education locally. In the long run the marketplace will favor the states that strive for real science and the other states will follow suit or suffer the consequences of politicising education. This works both ways, trust me. While liberals were pushing to replace creationsim with evolution, they were also coming up with other experiments that proved unwise.

I moved from San Francisco to Montgomery County, MD just north of DC, and back to SF all in the 9th grade. I flunked algebra in Maryland and got A's when I returned to SF. Liberals ****** up the SF schools...

[Berzerker]

Unfortunately, the result is schools seeking to pacify both- which results in a bland, inoffensive curriculum that bores the hell out of students and does little to prepare them for higher learning.

Thats true, make the schools an arm of government and its going to get political. Just no way to avoid it other than send your kids to private schools. But because liberals and many conservatives want public schools, poorer taxpayers cant afford both the taxes and the private tuition, so they're stuck with the government system.

[Whaleboy]

With all due respect, your bad experience with algebra in Maryland need not be representative of the US education system. And I do not think that it should be a mere contract between parent and teacher, since the taxpayer is involved too. Also your model would allow for such things as white-supremacy or homophobia to be taught in communities that hold such views, so education becomes a means of reinforcing old and stagnant concepts, instead of a means of progress, which has always come from the liberal side (of the time) anyway. Lincoln, Martin Luther King and the rest, were all liberals of their time.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by The diplomat
So basically, the universe just is. It had no beginning since there was no time before it. It simply is.

Bingo.

Because the life on this planet show a level of complexity, organization, functionality and content of information that clearly points to an intelligence.

No, it points to dumb selection with reinforcing feedback. We are all stardust.

Everyone acknowledges intelligent design when it comes to say a tv or a computer.

That's because we are taught that we invented them right from the get-go. For a toddler, the notion that humans create televisions is non-intuitive.

Two billion years ago, a natural nuclear reactor formed in Oklo, Gabon. It maintained a compled for several thousand years.

Did it come about through some sapient artifice? Nope. Just dumb luck.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Berzerker

Thats true, make the schools an arm of government and its going to get political. Just no way to avoid it other than send your kids to private schools. But because liberals and many conservatives want public schools, poorer taxpayers cant afford both the taxes and the private tuition, so they're stuck with the government system.

For the most part people get out of the schools exactly what they ask for. Teaching to the tests? Yep it's there. A secure facility? It may be on lockdown. Social services, medical help, disability assistance... all those too, that full-time parents are having trouble dealing with on their own. All that stuff costs money, and takes up valuable time & energy.

[Berzerker]

WB

With all due respect, your bad experience with algebra in Maryland need not be representative of the US education system.

But it is, where liberals have had the most control for lengthy periods of time, schools have gone downhill. The exceptions are wealthy liberal areas. Its not entirely liberals fault of course, parents are ultimately responsible but other liberal programs like welfare promote out of wedlock births so parenting becomes even more strained. Higher taxes mean more families with 2 working parents so even those women who didn't embrace the feminist "career woman" agenda are pushed into the workforce.

And I do not think that it should be a mere contract between parent and teacher, since the taxpayer is involved too.

Involve the taxpayer and you involve the politician.

Also your model would allow for such things as white-supremacy or homophobia to be taught in communities that hold such views, so education becomes a means of reinforcing old and stagnant concepts, instead of a means of progress, which has always come from the liberal side (of the time) anyway.

Yes, it would (you planning on removing racist parents from their kids too? ). Like I said, public schools are just a battlefield for liberals and conservatives to indoctrinate other people's children. You've just explained why - liberals want to teach other people's children to be nice to liberals.

[Whaleboy]

But it is, where liberals have had the most control for lengthy periods of time, schools have gone downhill. The exceptions are wealthy liberal areas. Its not entirely liberals fault of course, parents are ultimately responsible but other liberal programs like welfare promote out of wedlock births so parenting becomes even more strained. Higher taxes mean more families with 2 working parents so even those women who didn't embrace the feminist "career woman" agenda are pushed into the workforce.

Well I see this as a problem that simply isn't the case in the EU, the UK specifically, so perhaps your problem is the culture "war" almost between liberal and conservative. The debate is always far more productive here .

Involve the taxpayer and you involve the politician.

And one would hope the consequentialist. Of course, democracy is (typically) the problem here .

Yes, it would (you planning on removing racist parents from their kids too? ). Like I said, public schools are just a battlefield for liberals and conservatives to indoctrinate other people's children. You've just explained why - liberals want to teach other people's children to be nice to liberals.

As opposed to conservatives?

I would prefer racist parents to have no influence on the education system. Ditto holocaust deniers and creationists (as much as it is attempted it cannot be equated to evolution in this respect). Certain ideas are simply better in the context of being taught to children in society.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Then he's an idiot. Purpose means the intended effect or use of the creator of some object. If there was no creator, it can't have a purpose.

Nope, "purpose" does not imply a creator. The purpose of an apple is to be eaten, even if it doesn't have a creator.

[Heresson]

I have a though. The story of God creating the Universe is Old Testament. As a Christian, I do not feel obliged to believe it.

[the_ceebs]

But it is, where liberals have had the most control for lengthy periods of time, schools have gone downhill. The exceptions are wealthy liberal areas. Its not entirely liberals fault of course,

If this is truely happening (Some form of evidence perhaps?) then it could be caused by many things, by a greater rate of inclusion of disadvantaged students bringing the averages down. Educational performance statistics are notoriously unreliable in the hands of political parties with an axe to grind.

parents are ultimately responsible but other liberal programs like welfare promote out of wedlock births so parenting becomes even more strained.

If this is true then how come the teenage pregnancy rates and abortion rates are at their lowest in liberal states in the USA. It may be that there are more pregnant women forced into marriage in illiberal states.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Heresson
I have a though. The story of God creating the Universe is Old Testament. As a Christian, I do not feel obliged to believe it.

The Old Testament is the only part of the Bible the fundies read. They believe more in "an eye for an eye" than "turn the other cheek".

[Whaleboy]

So the fundies are Jewish?

Actually....

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap


How do you come to the conclusion that this was anacdotal, as opposed to a known fact that is simply not being fleshed out anymore than if someone says the sky is blue. (do they then have to go into a full fledged discussion of why?)

This could very well have been a summary of more specific data (but given the way it is written I doubt it). However, there are no references to any data that I can examine, therefore it is anecdotal. That doesnt automatically exclude the results/conclusions if testable data is also present. Given that it is not, these examples are of no more scientific note than the descriptions of the woods in Winnie The Pooh.

Would they have to have alid out beforehand the entire botanical history of the species and thus shown , through copmparitive genetic studies that this was a European transplant? Is the introduction of Kudzu just anacdotal for you as well? norway rats?

What do people need to do?

As a matter of fact they would. Just how much they would have to provide in the introduction depends on how well known the subject is.

[Theben]

But it is, where liberals have had the most control for lengthy periods of time, schools have gone downhill. The exceptions are wealthy liberal areas. Its not entirely liberals fault of course, parents are ultimately responsible but other liberal programs like welfare promote out of wedlock births so parenting becomes even more strained. Higher taxes mean more families with 2 working parents so even those women who didn't embrace the feminist "career woman" agenda are pushed into the workforce.

This is pure BS. The same can be said of 'conservative- controlled' areas (whatever that means, there are plenty of each found in population and power in most areas of the country). Welfare doesn't "promote" out of wedlock births, and as someone pointed out the 'liberal' states have lower OOW pregnancy and abortion rates. Sex education plays a big role there (another evil liberal idea). And women were forced into the workforce by the combination of declining wage earnings and increasing costs of living. I know plenty of people who try to do the 1 breadwinner option, so someone can stay home with the kids. It's not a matter of ideology, it's one of money. And I don't see an influx of women rushing back home after the Bush, or Reagan, tax 'cuts', so maybe increased taxes didn't account for too much, eh?