US drops from the top 10 free economies list

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Not necessarily so - but yes, crime is a result of poverty and as we see in the US today, where there is no safety net, prison populations are very high.

Uh, the US has a safety net.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Berzerker


No, the rich would make that money with formerly poorer people working for them, people who become better off - even middle class. And a bunch of them start businesses and become "rich" and hire poor people.



How can commies pay taxes? The state owns the means of production. Anyway, so what? It ain't generosity to give away someone else's money.

But they don't give away someone elses money, they give away their own money, and get other people to do the same. If it was just spending the other people's money and not their own, then no one would pay taxes, because everyone only has their own money, and would be requiring the other person - who only has his own money - to pay for them.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Most people, including me, understand the validity of paying taxes to use public roads or for police protection. You dont see overwhelming support for taxes to pay for alot of the nonsense in Washington.

But if you say I don't have a natural right to make you pay for things that I find necessary, why would you have a right to make me pay for things that you find necessary?

[Last Conformist]

Who says there's a such thing as natural rights to make anyone pay for anything? Couldn't it be so simple that what should be paid for via taxes be decided by consensus or vote within the ruling stratum? I believe we used to call it "politics".

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ned
Inventions cannot be "planned."

Why not?

China must have realised this as they have chosen the capitalist path to growth. They actually seem to now understand the role of patents in life.

Actually they learned how to negotiate with the West to obtain their technology.

But on at least one point we seem to agree, there must be retained earnings for an entity, government owned or not, to grow.

If you mean that there must be some net savings, I say that there must be some savings to retool for each year, but that's all that's really necessary. Growth is optional in communism, but not capitalism. Capitalism must grow to survive.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by David Floyd
So, if you are willing to accept a government that steals some of your property, then you must also be willing to accept a government that steals all of your property.

No, it is a logical position that you are willing to accept a government that steals some of your property, but not one that steals all of it. IMHO, I believe tax should be set so that if you earn more, you get more - that is, if you earn $100,000, and someone else earns $50,000, taking tax away should mean the first persons still has more than the 2nd person. That way there is always an incentive to work, that you will get more if you work more. That is a logical distinction between a 99% tax rate and a 100% tax rate - at the first you are still relatively well off if you earn more before tax than your neighbours.

Moreover, surely your argument is then that if it's not right to steal at all, it's not right to have any tax. Thus no defence spending, no transport spending and no administration expenses - no government of any kind.

Even a libertarian government designed to enforce property rights and lock up criminals costs money. How would this cost be met?

[Alexander's Horse]

Opponents of taxation tend to target government spending they don't like but are the first to squeal when spending they benefit from is cut. Its quite childish really.

[Sava]

TAXATION IS NOT STEALING... EVEN JESUS SAID ITS OKAY!

[Patroklos]

You should be taxed for the services you could conceivably use. Everyone benefits from defense, everyone benefits from roads, everyone benefits from police and prisons.

Very few benefit from welfare.

Stealing is taking from me via taxes to support something that not only doesn't help me, but hurts society at large. Welfare.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You should be taxed for the services you could conceivably use. Everyone benefits from defense, everyone benefits from roads, everyone benefits from police and prisons.

Very few benefit from welfare.

Very few directly benefit from police and defense, too.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You should be taxed for the services you could conceivably use. Everyone benefits from defense,

Some would rather policies that didn't involve needing defence.

Originally posted by Patroklos
everyone benefits from roads,

No they don't, some don't use a car.

Originally posted by Patroklos
everyone benefits from police and prisons.

Some don't believe in prisons. Should someone be forced to pay for imprisoning someone for smoking dope when they believe it should be legal?

Originally posted by Patroklos
Stealing is taking from me via taxes to support something that not only doesn't help me, but hurts society at large. Welfare.

Likewise with imprisonment for smoking dope, some would say.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Drogue



No they don't, some don't use a car.

And food in your local store is created out of nothing onsite?

[Odin]

Libertarians like thier "personal rights", especially thier right to f*ck the rights of others. Libertarianism is unstable, it would creat a permanent underclass that would become more and more radical untill KABOOM.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You should be taxed for the services you could conceivably use. Everyone benefits from defense, everyone benefits from roads, everyone benefits from police and prisons.

Very few benefit from welfare.

Stealing is taking from me via taxes to support something that not only doesn't help me, but hurts society at large. Welfare.

It is perhaps the greatest triumph of the Republican Party that a majority of ordinary Americans are quite convinced of this.

Meanwhile the middle class shrinks, the underclass grows and the super rich, like the Bush family, are laughing all the way to the country club.

Most ordinary citizens in Western countries enjoy a far higher standard of living and quality of life than ordinary Americans - and Americans either don't believe it or, rather perversely, are damn proud of it.

Is it any wonder your average European thinks your average Americans are quite stupid? How is such a gap between rich and poor possible in the richest country in the world? The whole world wonders about that - except Americans.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


It is perhaps the greatest triumph of the Republican Party that a majority of ordinary Americans are quite convinced of this.

Meanwhile the middle class shrinks, the underclass grows and the super rich, like the Bush family, are laughing all the way to the country club.

Most ordinary citizens in Western countries enjoy a far higher standard of living and quality of life than ordinary Americans - and Americans either don't believe it or, rather perversely, are damn proud of it.

Is it any wonder your average European thinks your average Americans are quite stupid? How is such a gap between rich and poor possible in the richest country in the world? The whole world wonders about that - except Americans.

It isn't that the average American is stupid, it is more like the average American is told how great Capitalism is in high school Civics class.