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Is the US a warlike country?

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  • Is the US a warlike country?

    After spending much, much time on 'Poly, while reading the posts of many American posters, I think this question is interesting. And it's a question that cannot be answered by a one big "duh!" in one direction or the other.

    Why is this question interesting?
    The US has a very comfortable #1 position in the world, in military and diplomatic matters. The US, as such, can go to war virtually unchallenged. The way the Americans at large (public opinion and political elites alike) see war has thus a strong impact on the world.
    Besides, with Sept. 11, the Us has discovered that the post-cold-war world was a dangerous place for them too. War is one of the ways the US can adapt to these new threats (and the US has waged two wars already since Sept. 11)

    Why would te Americans be warlike?

    1. War is seen as an acceptable political method.
    The US hasn't suffered any significant horror and destruction since the Civil War, bar Sept. 11 (and one may argue Sept. 11 is a pretty paltry horror in comparison to what other countries have experienced in their history, but that's not the point of this thread).
    As a result, there are far fewer Americans than, say, Europeans, who oppose the very idea of war for the sake of principle. When Europeans want to use all political means until exhaustion, many Americans wish a swift action to be taken, because the "bad guys" don't care for words, and only understand force.
    This "It's about time we do something that works!" mentality could be seen with the war in Kosovo (where the American diplomacy ruined the -maybe useless- European diplomacy by immediately siding with the guerilla and initiating the NATO war against Serbia). It could also be seen in Iraq, where the US wanted a war, as they distrusted Saddam to comply if not for that.
    This mentality, I have also seen it time and time again, held by numerous posters. I am not arguing that it is right or wrong. I am arguing, however, that this mentality makes war something acceptable.

    2. The belief in the US as a force of good.
    The so-called 'Messianic self-opinion of the United States' strikes me as completely true, by my experience here. Nearly every American supporter of the wars happening after the Cold War argued that the American involvement would make the attacked country a better place.
    Among our American posters who support outside intervention, most think that the US' role is to shape the world in a better place. Very few show their belief that the US should strive for its interests, and nothing else matters.
    It means that the States have the right to impose their solutions to "****holes", sometimes at gunpoint. The US has a right to change entire nations or regions in a fashion that the Americans think is better (again, I'm not judgemental - it has happened quite a few times that the modified nation strongly appreciates it).
    Of course, since the Americans see themselves as the "good guys", and since their enemies are always the "bad guys", it makes war the more acceptable. Who wants to see bad guys still in place, when the good guys can do something about it?

    3. The belief in technology and "Clean Wars".
    The terminology is amazing. "Smart Weapons". "Clean War". "Zero-dead war". Admittedly, these concepts have suffered a bit since Gulf-War 2, as many Americans lost their lives in very nasty ways. And because some fights (Fallujah) were not done throough glitzy electronics, but showed the cruel reality of street warfare.
    But despite these recents setbacks for the idea of a "clean" war, I think this belief is deeply ingrained in the American psyche. Many Americans here get defensive when someone mentions a 'absurdly' high amount of Iraqi casualties. It hints to a kind of shame that the Americans (the ones with the technology that can kill foes without killing friends) would kill too many people.
    So, the Americans not only tend to believe that war is something acceptable (point 1 & 2), but also something that ought to be relatively painless.

    4. The belief in the military as a force of good.
    The way the Americans see their military strikes me as something completely different to what I grew up in. Over here, you'll never hear somebody saying "The troops defend our Freedom!" (how many times did I see Americans making that statement). The military is seen as force of freedom, of liberation.
    To many, the military is also very formative. Many posters here (despite 'Poly being far more liberal than the bulk of the US) identify strongly with their military past. I don't remember even one non-American poster sporting its military past as a main aspect of their identity.
    Besides, the military seems to be an important issue in everyday discussions. People are expected to visibly "support the troops", whether in our debates, or in real life. For example, OzzyKP told us about the "Yellow Ribbon Fever", the Yellow Ribbon was originally a symbol someone hung at his front door to say they had a relative serving in a war. It has turned into a symbol saying "I support the troops" to all your neighbours. The fact that it spread so much shows that 1) support for the troops is socially expected (and no, it is not obvious) and 2) many people consider it an important enough issue that they put a symbol on their front door that actively shows their concern.
    110
    Yes.
    67.27%
    74
    No.
    23.64%
    26
    Banana :ana:
    9.09%
    10
    Last edited by Spiffor; January 1, 2005, 12:49.
    "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
    "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
    "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

  • #2
    Why would the Americans not be warlike?

    1. The temptation of isolationism.
    The idea of isolationism is still alive in the US, even though it took a setback since Sept. 11. George Bush defended an Isolationist policy in his first monthes before the attack, and the US shows extreme distrust toward international bodies or agreements (distrust toward the UN, toward the ICC, toward Kyoto, etc.)
    I think this distrust shows that many Americans continue to have the deeply-seated attitudes that favor isolationism, and it will emerge once again when the war on terror will be over. I think these isolationist tendencies were the main reasons why the Bush admin had to propagandize about the Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Saddam-Ossama link. Had the propaganda been only about the need to oust a brutal dictator, the support for the war would have probably been far less important among the Public Opinion.

    2. The idea that the US are the good guys (again)
    This belief makes "good" wars more acceptable to the American public. But in the same vein, it makes "bad" wars less acceptable. Many Americans (conservatives as well as liberals) will not accept that the good guys spill blood just for greed.
    Unlike many other countries where the leaders can decide to go to war pretty much on a whim, the American leadership has to convince its public opinion that the war is good. It takes time, and it doesn't always work. The lengths the American propagandists go to justify their wars would strike many authoritarian rulers as completely useless.
    LOTM once said "We are a nation of reluctant warriors", which IMO is quite true. It takes time to motivate the Americans into supporting a war. And that support must be continually fed, lest the public discovers how indeed nasty the war is.
    "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
    "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
    "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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    • #3
      And you ask this forum that question? Hahahah... Americans stood tall during WWII and Korea when things were a lot worse. There is no reason they won't continue supporting the war in Iraq. Besides there really isn't much of a war in Iraq to begin with.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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      • #4
        The US hasn't suffered any significant horror and destruction since the Civil War, bar Sept. 11
        Uh...Pearl Harbor, without which we might not have entered World War II?
        "I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
        ^ The Poly equivalent of:
        "I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite

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        • #5
          At the time Pearl Harbour wasn't part of the US. Statehood had been refused a few years beforehand. (?)
          One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dauphin
            At the time Pearl Harbour wasn't part of the US. (?)
            It was a US naval base, so yeah it is... even if Hawaii wasn't a state.

            Just like embassies overseas are technically US soil even though they are based in different countries.
            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

            Comment


            • #7
              There are so many generalizations, misconseptions, and gross exaggerations about both sides of the Atlantic. that it is hard to take your post as more than a well-veiled troll.
              "I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
              ^ The Poly equivalent of:
              "I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
                There are so many generalizations, misconseptions, and gross exaggerations about both sides of the Atlantic. that it is hard to take your post as more than a well-veiled troll.
                Me or Dauphin?
                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous

                  Uh...Pearl Harbor, without which we might not have entered World War II?
                  That was nothing compared to the wholesale distruction from bombings in England, Germany, etc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Giancarlo: Actually, Spiffor

                    Odin: So what. He left it out. Europe has nothing to do with what I was replying to.
                    "I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
                    ^ The Poly equivalent of:
                    "I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
                      There are so many generalizations, misconseptions, and gross exaggerations about both sides of the Atlantic. that it is hard to take your post as more than a well-veiled troll.
                      There are many generalizations, true. This is why I said "many", "tend to" etc, because I know I have no figures to back these impressions up.

                      If you see misconceptions, please go ahead and tell me which. Most of my conceptions come from my experience of speaking with Americans here (and I know 'Poly is not a reliable sample of the US, in that it is much more liberal), and some others come from what I percieve as mass-behaviour and the way I interpret it.
                      I am fully aware my perceptions can be false. Now, I intended to make a serious thread, and I would have never put so much effort in a troll. So if you see misconceptions, please go ahead and tell me which ones.
                      Last edited by Spiffor; January 1, 2005, 13:16.
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think alot of Americans are looking for an excuse to do something to recreate the "glory" of World War 2.

                        World War 2 is so ingrained into our heads I don't think how many people realize it.

                        This explains point #2 on your original post, Spiffor.

                        Nobody realizes that a bunch of other things have happened in the last 50 years.
                        Last edited by Ted Striker; January 1, 2005, 13:24.
                        We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                        • #13
                          I voted 'banana' as it depends on who you are comparing the US to.

                          Compared to most of the non-european world and compared to history the US is actually quite peaceable.


                          The US is warlike when compared to europe today, but that is due to a change in europe not due to the US itself.
                          We here in europe are at the forefront of new developments in the handling of international relations - which should come as no surprise to anyone as europe's main advantage over the rest of the planet since 1500 has been how it organizes relations within and between states.

                          You could have asked the question 'is Russia/Ottoman empire more likely to interfere with another state's choice of religion' after 1649 and gotten the same answer of 'yes' - but again that was because western europe had developed a different method of international relations after the thirty years war, a method (the nation-state) that proved superior.

                          Whether europe's new approach of shared-soverignty and security-through-openness will prove superior to the nation-state remains to be seen, however, with the slow spread of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles to more and more states I think it has distinct advantages over the nation-state model.
                          19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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                          • #14
                            First, it was Americans first and foremost that took to the streets to protest the war in Iraq. It is Americans that first and foremost continue to do so.

                            Its hard to distinguish when you're talking about the Administration and the American people. Often, you say that Americans did this and that when it was the self-righteous Bush team (and even the staunchest conservative knows they're self-righteous) that took action that had to be defended and justified by their supporters.

                            As far as being the "good guys"...everyone sees themselves as the good guys. It is a small but vocal group that thinks that we're messianic. The only times we meddle with foreign nations, get this, ISN'T to change them for right but to change them so that our interests are secured. That's not the people, that's those in power.
                            "I predict your ignore will rival Ben's" - Ecofarm
                            ^ The Poly equivalent of:
                            "I hope you can see this 'cause I'm [flipping you off] as hard as I can" - Ignignokt the Mooninite

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "No" is holding its ground with respectable 8,33% of all votes.

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