United States of Europe vs. Stalinland: Ukraine, pt. II

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


I don't think the US State Department and Human Rights Watch are trustworthy sources in what concerns Russia. Personally, I don't believe them a bit.

And the Russian authorities is more of a proper source?

Yanokuvich deserves a whole bunch of eggs. He's trying to ruin his country's emerging democratic institutions. Why can't he just concede and admit that he lost? I want him investigated for what happened in the 2nd vote, if he concedes or not.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Why can't he just concede and admit that he lost?

Why couldn't Yushchenko just concede and admit that he lost?

[Last Conformist]

Yushchenko had some good reasons to believe he might still carry the day by refusing to concede. Do you think Yanukovich has?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Yushchenko had some good reasons to believe he might still carry the day by refusing to concede. Do you think Yanukovich has?

I don't think so, because the seat of his support is not Kyiv, meaning that he can't have a mob-rule over the institutions. He can't have a favourable mob invade the Constitutional Court, for example.

However, he may have a legal case against Yushchenko, and he should use it. I think it would be best for Ukraine if Yushchenko won the legal case (even though I doubt it, not that I think the election was clean enough, but I think the lack of mob support in Kyiv will mean the Constitutional Court won't back him). Such a continuation of the crisis would force Ukraine to hold elections that are actually free, and that correspond to the Ukrainian Law*.
Should Yushchenko win unchallenged, it would prove that you can win elections no matter the processes or the results, if you have the support of the crowd in Kyiv.

Edit: forgot the *
*From what I gather, the Ukrainian law requires to cancel the whole election, and to start a whole new one. As it ordered only to cancel the runoff, the Court did not follow the process closely.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't think so, because the seat of his support is not Kyiv, meaning that he can't have a mob-rule over the institutions. He can't have a favourable mob invade the Constitutional Court, for example.

However, he may have a legal case against Yushchenko, and he should use it. I think it would be best for Ukraine if Yushchenko won the legal case (even though I doubt it, not that I think the election was clean enough, but I think the lack of mob support in Kyiv will mean the Constitutional Court won't back him). Such a continuation of the crisis would force Ukraine to hold elections that are actually free, and that correspond to the Ukrainian Law*.
Should Yushchenko win unchallenged, it would prove that you can win elections no matter the processes or the results, if you have the support of the crowd in Kyiv.

spiffs swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
spiffs swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

Do you think those elections were clean? Do you think the supporters of Yushchenko had "pure" intentions, in that they merely demonstrated for free elections, instead of merely demanding the victory of their candidate? Do you think Yushchenko was fighting for freedom and democracy, rather than from his own rise to power?

Yushchenko, just like Yanukovich, is a self-centered *******, and he used non-democratic means for his rise to power (namely, he used the crowd to block many strategic points in the country, and his crowd invaded institutions).

No matter how I disliked Yushchenko's role in it, I think it was a good thing that the Ukrainian population opposed the massive cheats during the first runoff. I now hope the Ukrainians will oppose the antidemocratic methods of the second runoff - even if this opposition happens to support the other antidemocratic clown that is Yanukovich.
If both crowds have it their way (in turn), I hope it will pave the way for genuine elections in Ukraine, as the candidates will understand that undemocratic elections can't pass unchallenged.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Do you think those elections were clean? .

Based on what international observers have said, the fraud was minor this time around. AFAICT the difference in the results is ENTIRELY due to that fact. Equating the two elections is absurd, and you know it. As for whether it was legal to repeat the second election without going back to the first, I dont know enough Ukrainian law to say so, and neither do you. I however am not taking the word of two posters whose tone and substance deny them credibility. I DO know that the strategic reason that the Kuchma forces wanted to go back to round 1, was that Yuschenko was almost out of money, and they were not, DESPITE the BS being thrown around about US and EU money.

Are Yusch and his supporters interested in winning. Sure. Thats usually the case when someone contests a fraudulent election. Thats neither here nor there - maybe our anglo saxon adversary system of justice inures me to that - I do doubt very much whether the INTENSITY of the crowds was unrelated to the fraud, and larger fraudulence of the Ukrainian system under Kuchma. I gather that from Western media interviews with members of the crowds. Of course if you think all those media outlets are part of a grand conspiracy you may discount them. And of course its easier to tell whats going in Kiev from Siberia. Where you have the benefit of fair and balanced news sources.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor


Yushchenko, just like Yanukovich, is a self-centered *******, and he used non-democratic means for his rise to power (namely, he used the crowd to block many strategic points in the country, and his crowd invaded institutions).
.

They may have been illegal means. They were NOT undemocratic means.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
This thread sorely lacks a UKRAINIAN.

That would be me

Kharkov, East Ukraine.

Yanukovich
Yushchenko
At least it's (hopefully) over

I voted Moroz in the 1st round, Yanukovich in the 2nd, skipped the 3rd one.

Honestly, it is very difficult to say which one of the two candidates is more repulsive.

Yanukovich is unacceptable to anyone with a little intelligence. It's puzzling Giancarlo does not support him.

On a personal level Yushchenko is somewhat better (I'm grading on a curve here), but his team is a bunch of morons one cannot easily find even in James Bond movies.

The only thing I'm somewhat pleased about is that Yu didn't win by a large margin, and that his support in E.Ukraine did not change much between 2nd and 3rd rounds. At least he won't have any ground to claim that he has an overwhelming popular support or any crap like that.

BTW, could it be that Heresson calls Yu supporters orangeutants? Could it be after all that there is such a thing as a Pole not supporting Yushchenko?

[ErikM]

Double post -- sorry

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by ErikM

That would be me

Kharkov, East Ukraine.

Yanukovich
Yushchenko
At least it's (hopefully) over

I voted Moroz in the 1st round, Yanukovich in the 2nd, skipped the 3rd one.

Honestly, it is very difficult to say which one of the two candidates is more repulsive.

Yanukovich is unacceptable to anyone with a little intelligence. It's puzzling Giancarlo does not support him.

On a personal level Yushchenko is somewhat better (I'm grading on a curve here), but his team is a bunch of morons one cannot easily find even in James Bond movies.

The only thing I'm somewhat pleased about is that Yu didn't win by a large margin, and that his support in E.Ukraine did not change much between 2nd and 3rd rounds. At least he won't have any ground to claim that he has an overwhelming popular support or any crap like that.

BTW, could it be that Heresson calls Yu supporters orangeutants? Could it be after all that there is such a thing as a Pole not supporting Yushchenko?

ah a ukrainian, at last.

Erik, i saw one article, I think it was in the Washington Post, saying that Kharkov at least was warming up to Yusch. I take it that was exagerated, and didnt effect the vote.

Were there any provinces in Ukraine that swung? the only electoral maps ive seen have been from the November election. Is Kharkov significantly different politically from Donetsk?

[ErikM]

Originally posted by Serb

You ask me to waste hell knows how many hours to make a research for you? Who will pay for that study?
Donetsk region alone is reponsible for 25% of Ukranian GDP. You have to believe me

Not quite but close

Value added data for Ukraine from http://ipa.net.ua:

Region        Value added, mln. UAH%Total
Donetsk                       19500 12.99%
City of Kiev                  17622 11.74%
Dnepropetrovsk                14504 9.66%
Kharkov                        9815 6.54%
Odessa                         8147 5.43%
Zaporozhye                     8056 5.37%
Lugansk                        7120 4.74%
Kiev                           6341 4.22%
Lviv                           5880 3.92%
Poltava                        4810 3.20%
Crimea                         4294 2.86%
Vinnitsa                       4270 2.84%
Nikolaev                       3876 2.58%
Sumy                           3551 2.36%
IvanoFrankivsk                 3532 2.35%
Cherkassy                      3350 2.23%
Chernygiv                      3339 2.22%
Khmelnitski                    3190 2.12%
Zhitomir                       3005 2.00%
Rivny                          2773 1.85%
Kherson                        2641 1.76%
Volyn                          2500 1.66%
Zakarpatye                     2365 1.58%
Ternopil                       2099 1.40%
Kirovograd                     2027 1.35%
Chernivtsi                     1545 1.03%

Total                        150152100.00%

[ErikM]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Erik, i saw one article, I think it was in the Washington Post, saying that Kharkov at least was warming up to Yusch. I take it that was exagerated, and didnt effect the vote.

+2% in favor of Yushchenko in Kharkov. Not statistically significant.

Were there any provinces in Ukraine that swung? the only electoral maps ive seen have been from the November election.

No. In two provinces, there was a rather sharp increase in favor of Yushchenko. From memory, Sumy went something like 60%->75% in favor of Yu and Kirovograd something like 52%->60%.

Is Kharkov significantly different politically from Donetsk?

Kharkov is more of a scientific/educational center, and Donetsk is more of an industrial center. For a very rough analogy, think Donetsk=Detroit and Kharkov=Boston.

Donetsk supports Yanukovich because it is reliant on Russia both import-wise and export-wise.

Kharkov supports Yanukovich by variety of reasons. For instance, I teach in one of the Kharkov universities. Despite a general decline in educational standarts in post-Soviet universities, we still remain reasonably competitive in attracting international students from China, India, Vietnam, Southern Russia, and so on, as there are a lot of Russian-speakers in these countries. Incidentally, their tuitions are an important source of funding for our universities. If Yushchenko gang pushes thru with their Ukrainization policies, we can kiss this market good-bye, and I think you'd agree that it would be a shame.

So for me the only question was whether I should cross out both candidates (which sorta gives you a moral high ground but frankly is a fairly pointless thing to do) or vote Yanukovich, a repulsive thug as he may be.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by ErikM
Yanukovich is unacceptable to anyone with a little intelligence. It's puzzling Giancarlo does not support him.

I like Fez much more since I determined to view him as a bot providing comic relief.

[Last Conformist]

What does this "ukrainization" programme entail, anyway?