The Second Coming of Apple

[Asher]

The problem with both of you guys is that you want to impose your own needs on everyone else. Not everyone needs a hyperfast machine with lots of silly doodads on it.

People want to buy a computer that does what they want without breaking the bank.

That's why Apple's marketshare is about 2%...

Don't talk to me about imposing my needs on others, you're the one trying to change the status quo.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
At least try to sound like you know what you are talking about. There is an easy access door on the bottom. Open it, slide the memory into the slot. Done.

An "easy access door" on the bottom of a heavy CRT-based computer?

What a weird world you live in.

[Agathon]

To my greatest horror, I must admit Ag's post had me thinking about getting my parents a Mac next time they'll buy a computer.

It's good advice. Macs are generally idiot proof.

For example, my wife destroys computers by looking at them. She can't seem to do anything to OS X, I have reinstalled it once in three years (when I got a new hard drive).

What usually happens with parents is that they go down to Future Shop and by a cheap Windows PC which is loaded with all sorts of "useful" software. They don't even know what a virus is, so they don't bother even starting up the free copy of NAV they get. Three months down the track, the thing is chock full of viruses and spyware and they don't know what to do.

My uncle (a high level executive who is really smart) did this sort of thing. He bought a Packard Bell machine (this was in the UK) and took it home. For some reason Windows XP just stopped working three months later and kept throwing him back to the boot screen. He asked the customer service people and they told him to install SP1. He didn't even know what this meant for God's sake.

So I turned up about a year later (they hadn't had time to fix it) and got it working properly. My knowledge of Windows is pretty limited, but I knew more than he did. His ****ing printer didn't work either. He just had given up on the machine and used the printer directly to print his photographs.

It took forever to download SP1 on his dialup connection, but why on earth would anyone ship a computer that stops working until you download some massive patch? That's insane.

He could have bought a mac. It would have worked out of the box with all his peripherals and would have kept working even if he didn't install any of the service packs. It certainly wouldn't have just stopped working and required him to reinstall the whole thing again.

For what he wanted an emac would have been ideal.

The worst thing was that when you reinstall XP on this machine, it demands that you register it with Packard Bell. That's normal, but what was worse was that if you didn't your computer would stop working after 21 days until you did. Worst of all, the registration process didn't work the first or second time.

Why should ordinary people have to put up with this crap?

[Kuciwalker]

It's good advice. Macs are generally idiot proof.

Because they're made for idiots.

[Spiffor]

Packard Bell is utterly evil. My parents have the sense to buy high-end Dell computers (Dell continues to rock in the high-end), which fortunately come without crapware.

The problem is that my parents love it when something fuctions flawlessly, and not in a intimidating fashion. Thus, error messages should preferably never happen.

A functioning printer should preferably happen, as well. The main reason why I'm so hostile to Mac is because of my extremely bad experience with them, back when I worked for the highschool's news. It was impossible to get anything printed or scanned, it just took forever (I'm talking 20+ minutes per page here). And yes, even at that time, PCs were able to print documents in 30 seconds.

[Agathon]

An "easy access door" on the bottom of a heavy CRT-based computer?

The amount of effort needed to turn the machine over is clearly beyond you.

People want to buy a computer that does what they want without breaking the bank.

That's why Apple's marketshare is about 2%...

The truth is that most people don't even know what the difference between Windows and Mac is.

Here's a typical conversation with my mothers friends:

Them: "Do you have any of these problems on your computer?"

Me: "No. I use a Macintosh, there are no viruses or spyware for the Macintosh."

Them: "Does Windows XP run on a Macintosh?"

Me: "No. It's a different kind of computer."

Them: "I thought all computers ran Windows."

Me: "No. There are many different operating systems: Windows, Mac OS, Linux, BSD, etc,"

Them: "What's an operating system?"

Me: "It's most easily described as the basic software that allows the computer to do everything else."

Them: "Do they all have Internet Explorer?"

Me: "No."

Them: "Then how do people get on the internet? You need Internet Explorer do do that!"

etc. etc..

[Agathon]

Because they're made for idiots.

If by idiots you mean the vast majority of computer users, then yes.

The whole point of the Macintosh is to put as little burden on the user as possible. That is how it was designed.

If you want to do complex things you can, but there is no need for most people to do that.

Here's a laugh. Someone had messed around with themes by accident and had enabled that theme (Win 98) which has the jungle sounds. So every so often when the screensaver was on, there were drumbeats and elephant noises. They didn't know what this was or how to turn it off, so they unplugged the speakers.

@ Spiff. OS X is a completely different beast from the old Mac OS.

[Agathon]

A functioning printer should preferably happen, as well. The main reason why I'm so hostile to Mac is because of my extremely bad experience with them, back when I worked for the highschool's news. It was impossible to get anything printed or scanned, it just took forever (I'm talking 20+ minutes per page here). And yes, even at that time, PCs were able to print documents in 30 seconds.

The old Mac OS was pretty much dead in the water. The last version of the Classic OS was OK, but it really needed a completely new start, which is what we got.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Agathon

Here's a laugh. Someone had messed around with themes by accident and had enabled that theme (Win 98) which has the jungle sounds. So every so often when the screensaver was on, there were drumbeats and elephant noises. They didn't know what this was or how to turn it off, so they unplugged the speakers.

How does one "accidently" do this?

[Q Classic]

At least try to sound like you know what you are talking about. There is an easy access door on the bottom. Open it, slide the memory into the slot. Done.

All all-in-ones have that. doesn't change the fact that they're not exactly able to be upgraded decently. More memory? whoo-de-****in' do.

That's a total waste of time. I used to take care of the emac in our lab. That meant logging in, deleting files that people had left on it (about 20 seconds) and launching a couple of apps to make sure they were working.

wow, just... wow. you haven't the foggiest on how to run and operate 200 computers in a single lab, do you? you have no idea how to set up user policies and permissions, and you don't understand the benefits of target deployment of specific images across several different platforms, do you?

Should they buy a massive gaming rig for this? No. That would be stupid.

am i suggesting that? no.

Should they use Windows with its security problems? Of course not.

it doesn't take much to maintain windows properly.

Do they care about pulling the machine apart and doing anything more than simple upgrades? No.

i was explaining why we don't deploy many of them. are you too dense to understand that?
even on a single-user basis, i explained why i can't recommend an all-in-one. upgradeability does not necessarily mean that everybody should go and add in a brand-spankin' new graphics card. it just means that if you want to replace the HD, you can. if you want to replace the sound card, you can. if you want to add in a wireless card, you can. all-in-ones don't allow that kind of flexibility.

i've advised people who were planning on moving from dorms to apartments who wanted to keep their desktops without buying a new computer what to do about their internets--just buy a $50 wireless card, rather than buying a new computer. i've told people that if they want to watch tv on their computer, they just need to add in a $50 tv card, rather than having to buy an expensive new monitor or even a new tv.

you can't get that kind of flexibility from an all-in-one.

Are they techie people? No.

most of the people i recommend computers to aren't techies either. and like i said, i can't give them a good reason to spend over $400 more for an emac when there's a windows computer that can do exactly what they want, without the inherent weaknesses of an all-in-one.

Unleashing Windows on any of these people is a recipe for disaster. I know, last time I was home I had to clean up several disasters for them. These people do not need the hassles caused by hardware conflicts, Windows screwing up, viruses or spyware.

none of my relatives are techies. yet once i set them up properly, they've yet to suffer a disaster using windows. indeed, the last "disaster" had nothing to do with software, and everything to do with a lightning storm that fubared the surge protector and the power supply of one of the two computers we have there.

It's exactly the same as buying a car. Some people want high performance cars that they can fiddle with and upgrade. Other people want small, low maintenance cars that require little or no knowledge to use. The emac and imac are targeted towards these people, and they are very good at doing the tasks that those people require them to do.

if we're going by this analogy, here's what i'm saying:
for myself, i want a tweaker's car.
for deploying large fleets, i want the industry standard, ugly as it may be, non-sexy as it might be, want to go from point a to point b... get a toyota.
for single end users, who just want to get from point a to point b... get a toyota.
a mac in this case, even a bargain basin emac, is recommending a beetle. sexy, maybe, stylish, maybe, but you pay a premium in utility and a premium in price for it.

[Agathon]

All all-in-ones have that. doesn't change the fact that they're not exactly able to be upgraded decently. More memory? whoo-de-****in' do.

Again, you assume that everyone cares about this. Most people do not upgrade their computers, just as they don't upgrade their cars. So your point is moot.

wow, just... wow. you haven't the foggiest on how to run and operate 200 computers in a single lab, do you? you have no idea how to set up user policies and permissions, and you don't understand the benefits of target deployment of specific images across several different platforms, do you?

Sure, you can do that on a mac, but that has nothing to do with my point, which was about maintenance. Nice try at changing the subject though.

am i suggesting that? no.

Well, shut up then.

it doesn't take much to maintain windows properly.

What it does take is beyond most people. I know this from my own experience.

i was explaining why we don't deploy many of them. are you too dense to understand that?
even on a single-user basis, i explained why i can't recommend an all-in-one. upgradeability does not necessarily mean that everybody should go and add in a brand-spankin' new graphics card. it just means that if you want to replace the HD, you can. if you want to replace the sound card, you can. if you want to add in a wireless card, you can. all-in-ones don't allow that kind of flexibility.

I upgraded the hard drive on my machine. It wasn't hard. But this is moot, most people aren't going to want to do that. It's even easier to upgrade this stuff on the imac G5 anyway. Again, most regular people won't want to do this.

i've advised people who were planning on moving from dorms to apartments who wanted to keep their desktops without buying a new computer what to do about their internets--just buy a $50 wireless card, rather than buying a new computer. i've told people that if they want to watch tv on their computer, they just need to add in a $50 tv card, rather than having to buy an expensive new monitor or even a new tv.

you can't get that kind of flexibility from an all-in-one.

Most people don't care. The emac and imac are designed to be easy to use machines that you chuck once you are finished with them. If you don't want that kind of computer, don't buy one. But some people do. Not everyone is the same as you and your friends.

most of the people i recommend computers to aren't techies either. and like i said, i can't give them a good reason to spend over $400 more for an emac when there's a windows computer that can do exactly what they want, without the inherent weaknesses of an all-in-one.

The inherent weakness for most people is Windows.

none of my relatives are techies. yet once i set them up properly, they've yet to suffer a disaster using windows. indeed, the last "disaster" had nothing to do with software, and everything to do with a lightning storm that fubared the surge protector and the power supply of one of the two computers we have there.

Well, our experience is different then.

if we're going by this analogy, here's what i'm saying:
for myself, i want a tweaker's car.
for deploying large fleets, i want the industry standard, ugly as it may be, non-sexy as it might be, want to go from point a to point b... get a toyota.
for single end users, who just want to get from point a to point b... get a toyota.
a mac in this case, even a bargain basin emac, is recommending a beetle. sexy, maybe, stylish, maybe, but you pay a premium in utility and a premium in price for it.

You don't get stuck with Windows. That's a major plus for most people I know.

[Asher]

[Agathon]

That's about all you are good for in the end.

I wonder how you tricked IBM into hiring you. I suppose they will wake up sooner or later.

[Asher]

Perhaps the reality of the situation is I have a better grip on computers and the computer market than a Kiwi Philosophy instructor.

IBM is as successful as it is because it hires quality people with high potential at a young age, and keeps them happy for a long time, making them career IBMers. Maybe they see something you don't, because they know what they're talking about.

[Agathon]

Perhaps the reality of the situation is I have a better grip on computers and the computer market than a Kiwi Philosophy instructor.

It appears not, since you are incapable of grasping basic problems.

IBM is as successful as it is because it hires quality people with high potential at a young age, and keeps them happy for a long time, making them career IBMers. Maybe they see something you don't, because they know what they're talking about.

I don't doubt you can fix stuff, that is not the real problem. But I'll leave off that because I'll just get in trouble.